[Blindmath] Integrating SVG with DAISY and MathML

Thu Feb 28 16:21:03 UTC 2013

Hi Tim,

I really liked to read what you have written and am writing back on the
subject. I may sound explaining but I wish to humbly submit that the
explanation may kindly be treated by one and all as a way to comprehend for
the better understanding of the situation and the related approaches, it
might look little lengthy or repetitive in some context but I request to all
to read and correct me if found so.

Pranav had presented the list  with the problem of making SVG accessible and
be readable in daisy with Math ML so when I wrote the program to import a
SVG element / Object in the Word file which usually is the input to the
Daisy Pipeline or similar programs. So my assumption was that it should be a
shape drawn in SVG or groups of them which are generally possible to be
drawn using an editor for SVG. And when a SVG object is created there shall
naturally be a title (he mentioned Accessible) and relevant information
which I proposed to be put dynamically in the alt deception of the shape in
the word file that we normally use the way to describe an image.

So assuming I have a well described SVG object which I want to be a part of
the Daisy Talking book I have to do something like this.

Run the small script and import the SVG object in to the word(please read in
binary format the way word would store all the details of shapes drawn in MS
Word) still maintaining all the original shape attributes intact.
Populate the Alt Description of this shape with the description of the SVG
object. I did not see the reason of having the images as written by you but
that is a part of the huge Artificial Intelligence aspect agreed with you. 

On the same note I would also like to share that I recently had an
interaction with the freedom scientific's technical support with regards to
the ability of a user to input or read the shapes ( through the DOM) that
are a part of the standard ribbon tools in the MS Word 2007 or above, while
the JAWS screen reader is  running and I have received an answer saying NO. 
where as it is possible to dig into the Document Object Model and know the
shape details like type, location, dimensions etc. this is an aspect needed
for me in one of my projects and hence I had worked on them. One can
certainly read the objects in the word file and know of its properties.

I have recently joined this wagon hence all my seniors may please excuse me
for my approaches, I wish to utilize my knowledge to these applications. I
shall surely look forward to your comments on all the aspects.

With Warm Regards,

Kiran

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-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tim in 't
Veld
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:08 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Integrating SVG with DAISY and MathML

Kiran,
SVG would be the most accessible format but your statement
"S V G  is accessible in a reader or say browser with screen reader."
Is an oversimplification. Contemporary screen readers don't contain any 
real functionality to make SVG accessible. There are some products which 
can exploit SVG's structure but they are not used widely.

In theory the Viewplus Iveo touchpad in combination with their embossers 
should make SVG quite accessible, but IVEO is buggy and has not been 
updated in nearly 5 years so I have givven up on them. You could check 
out tactile view (by Jaap Breider). There may be other solutions I am 
unaware of.

Correct: "In a digital talking book usually the source file needs to be 
imported into the daisy generator program and most likely to be from a 
word or HTML file." Indeed, the source file needs to be well structured 
according to strict rules for Daisy conversion (PDF would be the only 
other commen format which enables authors to store the necessary 
headings and other structure).

"We can have an S V G  element in HTML file but not in a doc file." - 
probably correct. for HTML files you  always have easy access to the SVG 
file, in Word documents accessing the SVG file would be much harder if 
it is possible at all.

"I have been able to figure out to import an S V G file in a word file 
and hence we may populate the  ..."
Agreed - you could dynamically construct an alt tag based on the SVG 
content though it is challenging to find the best way to construct a 
meaningful image description automatically. Nice AI project.

"This is usually the practice to describe the image if any in a daisy 
conversion." - true I guess (but I'm not well informed on Daisy 
conversion products and practices).
Tim
On 28-2-2013 05:21, Kiran wrote:
> Dear pranav,
>
> I have been working on something and came across this mail again. Please
correct me if I am wrong as this may be of interest to all working in
digital books editing or conversion for S T E M.
>
> My knowledge or assumption is as under
>
> S V G  is accessible in a reader or say browser with screen reader.
>
> In a digital talking book usually the source file needs to be imported
into the daisy generator program and most likely to be from a word or HTML
file.
>
> We can have an S V G  element in HTML file but not in a doc file.
>
> I have been able to figure out to import an S V G file in a word file and
hence we may populate the word file with the shape in the binary format as
discussed with you and dynamically add the title and other contents that
described the S V G element in the original file to the alt text feature of
the shape file in a word document.
>
> This is usually the practice to describe the image if any in a daisy
conversion. Please let me know if there is any explanation / understanding
by me needed.
>
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Kiran
>   
>
>
>   
> DISCLAIMER:-
>
>
> This e-mail message (including any attachment) is intended only for the
personal use of the recipient(s) named above. This message is confidential
and may be legally privileged.  If you are not an intended recipient, you
may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete
the original message.
>
> Any views or opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
only. Furthermore, this message (including any attachment) does not create
any legally binding rights or obligations whatsoever, which may only be
created by the exchange of hard copy documents signed by a duly authorized
representative of the company If Official or other wise signed by the Author
on Valid Documents.
>
> On 14-Jan-2013, at 8:20 PM, Kiran <Kiran at persiontechnologies.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi pranav,
>>
>> I guess there is not any direct way to do so, but there certainly is a
workaround, we can not import an accessible svg file in to a word processor
that may help us in converting it to daisy but we may put a link to the svg
file and launch the svg file in a browser that shall be then accessed via
description.
>>
>> Shall have a word with you on a call shortly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kiran S Deshpande
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> DISCLAIMER:-
>>
>>
>> This e-mail message (including any attachment) is intended only for the
personal use of the recipient(s) named above. This message is confidential
and may be legally privileged.  If you are not an intended recipient, you
may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete
the original message.
>>
>> Any views or opinions expressed in this message are those of the author
only. Furthermore, this message (including any attachment) does not create
any legally binding rights or obligations whatsoever, which may only be
created by the exchange of hard copy documents signed by a duly authorized
representative of the company If Official or other wise signed by the Author
on Valid Documents.
>>
>> On 14-Jan-2013, at 7:09 PM, "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Is there a tool or technique that allows me to integrate accessible SVG
with
>>> a DAISY book that consists of MathML and regular DAISY text?
>>>
>>> Note:
>>> If there is a better list for me asking this question, please let me
know.
>>>
>>> Pranav
>>>
>>>
>>>
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