[Blindmath] Minitab

Wed Jun 5 11:32:39 UTC 2013

Being in the US I have to start with the things we use. I need to verify that the problem is real which would include getting the vendor response. Next I have to warn any instructors who use it that the moment a blind student walks into there class that software package is going to have to go. And finally I have to find a reasonable alternative. The list of things that don't work appears longer than the list of what does.

Paul Chapin
Academic Technology Specialist
Amherst College

On Jun 4, 2013, at 8:15 PM, "Jonathan Godfrey" <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz> wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> I've communicated this with sales reps and no further. It's been a very long
> time since I've seen a sales rep at a conference or visiting our university
> though.
> 
> As I am not a US national living overseas or resident in the US, I can't
> rely on legislation like s508 of the ADA to help any claim I might make with
> Minitab. New Zealand doesn't have any legislation that would help me at all
> on this topic as it happens and the community that might be interested in
> such legislation is too small at present to get some introduced. We also
> have the challenge that the majority of commercial operators like Minitab
> Inc. could just walk away without too much pain and suffering on their
> account as we are just too small to matter.
> 
> If enough interest is found for making a more meaningful approach to
> Minitab, I'd like to be part of it. The problem is that once started on this
> route, you'd need to write up a small shopping list of similar software
> products that should be targeted. My standards of accessibility are
> different to some others on this list though. While some are willing to
> persevere with SPSS, I am not. Ditto for Minitab. Other products are just
> awful from an accessibility standpoint and would find universal condemnation
> from the blindness community. Statistica and GenStat are two products in
> this situation.
> 
> Who do we take on first?
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Chapin
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 1:04 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab
> 
> Has this information been sent to Minitab?  They seem to think they don't
> have a problem.
> 
> Paul Chapin
> Academic Technology Specialist
> Amherst College
> X2144
> 
> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
> email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
> bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login as
> the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
> passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
> 
> From: Jonathan Godfrey
> <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>
> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Date: Monday, June 3, 2013 6:45 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> It's been a holiday weekend here and I couldn't send email while I was away.
> Minitab is one statistical package I do need to know a lot about and still
> must even though it is no longer accessible for me.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's my material on the web Justin is referring to but I
> have documented my experiences with Minitab and other statistics software
> at:
> http://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/statsoftware/
> 
> 
> The Minitab part of that page says:
> Minitab
> I have used versions 8.2, 10.1, 11, 12.2.1, 13.3, 14,15, and 16 of Minitab.
> The last version of Minitab that was accessible was version 13. This version
> is now well out of date and will not function on more recent versions of
> Windows.
> 
> Version 14 use a different worksheet for data which was not accessible
> although this is not so much of a problem once data is successfully
> imported. Students needing to use Minitab might succeed using version 14 if
> data is given in Minitab format. Another issue is that some dialogue boxes
> new to this version were not accessible. This includes the design of
> experiments and graph creation dialogues.
> 
> Versions 15 and 16 have been altered to improve the visual experience of the
> sighted user. Menu items that have no relevance at the specific time that a
> user pulls up that menu are greyed out. This causes screen readers grief and
> the wrong item is read aloud in the majority of situations. I have used both
> of these versions (unwillingly) to create material similar to that created
> by my students, but my ability to do this is heavily reliant on my memory of
> the menus and dialogue boxes built up from previous versions of Minitab.
> 
> Use of the command language of Minitab does remain an option. I started
> working this way in version 8.2 (for DOS) in 1995 while my sighted
> classmates were using a windows version (10.1 I think). My reason for using
> 8.2 was not a Minitab issue but was due to the inability of blind people to
> successfully work with the Windows operating system prior to Windows 95.
> 
> The command syntax is not as intuitive as other languages and it is
> difficult to find people who are comfortable using the command language
> today.
> 
> Last version tested: 16
> 
> <end of section>
> 
> My conclusion is that the blind student who feels that Minitab is the option
> they must follow is asking for a lot of extra work because their classmates
> won't be able to help, the staff might not be able to help, and Minitab Inc.
> isn't helping either.
> 
> My advice to anyone contemplating use of Minitab is that they should ask
> their classmates to turn on the display of commands in the session window.
> Minitab's menus just create code in the background that is then passed into
> the engine. The code can all be typed out (albeit painfully) but it is
> achievable. You can save the commands in a text file and run the text files
> but the effort in learning the syntax etc. required for Minitab will exceed
> the effort required to do the same work in a more natural language.
> 
> The only shortcut on offer is that the vast majority of commands printed
> need not be typed out in full. For any main command such as "regress" for
> example, you only need to type four letters "regr". It doesn't save much but
> every little bit helps.
> 
> Sorry, I do not have any accessible information about the Minitab commands
> that I used to type out as that was over 15 years ago and life moved on to
> an accessible Minitab (temporarily).
> 
> I'm not sure where to get a version 12 copy either. My one was a university
> licence based copy which became unusable when the licence system changed
> over when my colleagues moved from version 14 to 15. The old licence system
> was very easily cracked so Minitab change it. This made my crackable version
> useless for me so I tossed it out years ago.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin
> Young
> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 5:27 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab
> 
> Yes that would definitely be interesting to find out.  I've never used this
> software before now and don't know personally how older versions were
> accessibility wise, but from what I've read online they were better to use
> with screen readers than the current versions.  Perhaps you have to activate
> the accessibility portion?  If you do, I don't have a clue how that's done.
> Just throwing an idea out there.
> 
> On 6/3/13, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
> wrote:
> It certainly was inaccessible when I was using it last year and people said
> it was accessible to an extent in version 12, so it seems like they did
> break accessibility.
> 
> If they are claiming it is accessible then it might be worth contacting them
> to find out how to make it accessible.
> 
> Michael Whapples
> On 03/06/2013 14:20, Paul Chapin wrote:
> Am I to understand from this that they managed to take an accessible product
> and make it inaccessible?  They still claim to be 508 compliant but they
> don't appear to make the VPAT available on the web.
> 
> Paul Chapin
> Academic Technology Specialist
> Amherst College
> X2144
> 
> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
> email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
> bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login as
> the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
> passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
> 
> From: Justin Young
> <jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com>>
> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
> rg>>
> Date: Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:54 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
> rg>>
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab
> 
> Is there anywhere to find MiniTab version 12?
> 
> On 6/2/13, Justin Young
> <jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> I think we might talk about that at some point.  Thanks for your
> help!:)
> 
> On 6/2/13, Michael Whapples
> <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
> wrote:
> The plugin I referred to is a plugin for the statistics package called R
> http://www.r-project.org and was to produce the graphs for statistical
> process control (SPC). Other than minitab can do SPC and so can the plugin,
> there is no relationship between the two (IE. the one does not provide an
> interface for the other, they are purely alternative software for doing
> SPC).
> 
> If SPC is a topic you will be covering then I can look back at my work to
> remind myself what the R plugin is called and where it can be obtained from.
> 
> Michael Whapples
> On 02/06/2013 00:23, Justin Young wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback.  Where/how do you get this "plug-in"?
> Thanks so much!
> 
> On 6/1/13, Michael Whapples
> <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> It was about a year ago, or 18 months, I was on a course where minitab was
> used as part of the course. You are correct about the accessibility (I think
> it was version 12 which was the last accessible version).
> However my university was unable to get hold of version 12, however they
> were agreeable for me to use other software for the tasks. May be something
> similar could be done in your case.
> 
> You probably can find other software for the tasks you would need to
> undertake. What the alternative software is might depend a bit on what
> precisely needs to be done. In my case I ended up using R and a plugin,
> however R may not be the best option for everything.
> Sometimes for simpler things even excel can be enough.
> 
>     From what I have heard, minitab 12 was usable with a screen reader but
> I have not had any practical experience and only know what others have told
> me.
> 
> I feel this has not been too specific, but I would imagine if you went down
> the route of using other tools then there would be people who would be
> willing to help you learn how to use it for the tasks you need to perform.
> Feel free to ask questions on what accessible tools may be good for certain
> tasks.
> 
> Michael Whapples
> On 01/06/2013 20:50, Justin Young wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> My name is Justin Young and I'm a blind student currently taking an intro
> stats course which is a prerequesit for a master's program that I'll be
> starting in the Fall.  I just subscribed officially to this list today, but
> before I did I tried sending a message so not sure if that message will be
> sent as well.  If it is, I apologize for the double posting.  My course is
> using a program called MiniTab 16 and I've never used it before.  I tried
> playing with the program that I installed on my computer and its not really
> fun to play with, haha!
> I came across a thread via google from this list on this subject and wanted
> to ask a few questions.  I believe the last version accessible to screen
> readers was version 12 or 13?  How many on this list have heard of it or
> have used this program?  Any suggestions, advice, comments you have are
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Justin Young
> 
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