[Blindmath] Minitab

Wed Jun 5 18:31:54 UTC 2013

I'm not sure if this is accurate because I haven't tried it yet, but
I've been told that JAWS 13 can work with MiniTab?  They're installing
it onto a computer in one of the labs where minitab is available and
once I have tried it I'll post again.  Thanks

Justin

On 6/5/13, John G. Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> We really need to get the NFB and/ore the ACB to take this stuff
> seriously.  I started a group called the International Association of
> Visually Impaired Technologists to deal with issues similar to this
> because the NFB would rather deal with issues that effect large numbers
> of blind people even if the problems are fairly minor. Minitab might be
> completely inaccessible but they won't be willing to  deal with that
> problem because so few blind people use Minitab.
>
> So I started the International Association of Visually Impaired
> Technologists to address problems of this type. Unfortunately, so far,
> my efforts have met with one huge yawn from tblind people themselves.
> But you can visit our web site at www.iavit.org.
>
> If you guys want to get together to try to do something about
> accessibility of spss and minitab, I think I can arrange for IAVIT's
> lawyer to be in on a skype   meeting.   The lawyer is doing his work for
> us pro-bono (for free) so I can't promise anything on his behalf.  But I
> can tell you he is passionate about these issues. He may be willing to
> help.
>
> On 06/05/13 06:32, Paul Chapin wrote:
>> Being in the US I have to start with the things we use. I need to verify
>> that the problem is real which would include getting the vendor response.
>> Next I have to warn any instructors who use it that the moment a blind
>> student walks into there class that software package is going to have to
>> go. And finally I have to find a reasonable alternative. The list of
>> things that don't work appears longer than the list of what does.
>>
>> Paul Chapin
>> Academic Technology Specialist
>> Amherst College
>>
>> On Jun 4, 2013, at 8:15 PM, "Jonathan Godfrey" <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> I've communicated this with sales reps and no further. It's been a very
>>> long
>>> time since I've seen a sales rep at a conference or visiting our
>>> university
>>> though.
>>>
>>> As I am not a US national living overseas or resident in the US, I can't
>>> rely on legislation like s508 of the ADA to help any claim I might make
>>> with
>>> Minitab. New Zealand doesn't have any legislation that would help me at
>>> all
>>> on this topic as it happens and the community that might be interested
>>> in
>>> such legislation is too small at present to get some introduced. We also
>>> have the challenge that the majority of commercial operators like
>>> Minitab
>>> Inc. could just walk away without too much pain and suffering on their
>>> account as we are just too small to matter.
>>>
>>> If enough interest is found for making a more meaningful approach to
>>> Minitab, I'd like to be part of it. The problem is that once started on
>>> this
>>> route, you'd need to write up a small shopping list of similar software
>>> products that should be targeted. My standards of accessibility are
>>> different to some others on this list though. While some are willing to
>>> persevere with SPSS, I am not. Ditto for Minitab. Other products are
>>> just
>>> awful from an accessibility standpoint and would find universal
>>> condemnation
>>> from the blindness community. Statistica and GenStat are two products in
>>> this situation.
>>>
>>> Who do we take on first?
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>>> Chapin
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 1:04 a.m.
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab
>>>
>>> Has this information been sent to Minitab?  They seem to think they
>>> don't
>>> have a problem.
>>>
>>> Paul Chapin
>>> Academic Technology Specialist
>>> Amherst College
>>> X2144
>>>
>>> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
>>> email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
>>> bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login
>>> as
>>> the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
>>> passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
>>>
>>> From: Jonathan Godfrey
>>> <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>
>>> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Date: Monday, June 3, 2013 6:45 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> It's been a holiday weekend here and I couldn't send email while I was
>>> away.
>>> Minitab is one statistical package I do need to know a lot about and
>>> still
>>> must even though it is no longer accessible for me.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if it's my material on the web Justin is referring to but I
>>> have documented my experiences with Minitab and other statistics
>>> software
>>> at:
>>> http://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/statsoftware/
>>>
>>>
>>> The Minitab part of that page says:
>>> Minitab
>>> I have used versions 8.2, 10.1, 11, 12.2.1, 13.3, 14,15, and 16 of
>>> Minitab.
>>> The last version of Minitab that was accessible was version 13. This
>>> version
>>> is now well out of date and will not function on more recent versions of
>>> Windows.
>>>
>>> Version 14 use a different worksheet for data which was not accessible
>>> although this is not so much of a problem once data is successfully
>>> imported. Students needing to use Minitab might succeed using version 14
>>> if
>>> data is given in Minitab format. Another issue is that some dialogue
>>> boxes
>>> new to this version were not accessible. This includes the design of
>>> experiments and graph creation dialogues.
>>>
>>> Versions 15 and 16 have been altered to improve the visual experience of
>>> the
>>> sighted user. Menu items that have no relevance at the specific time that
>>> a
>>> user pulls up that menu are greyed out. This causes screen readers grief
>>> and
>>> the wrong item is read aloud in the majority of situations. I have used
>>> both
>>> of these versions (unwillingly) to create material similar to that
>>> created
>>> by my students, but my ability to do this is heavily reliant on my memory
>>> of
>>> the menus and dialogue boxes built up from previous versions of Minitab.
>>>
>>> Use of the command language of Minitab does remain an option. I started
>>> working this way in version 8.2 (for DOS) in 1995 while my sighted
>>> classmates were using a windows version (10.1 I think). My reason for
>>> using
>>> 8.2 was not a Minitab issue but was due to the inability of blind people
>>> to
>>> successfully work with the Windows operating system prior to Windows 95.
>>>
>>> The command syntax is not as intuitive as other languages and it is
>>> difficult to find people who are comfortable using the command language
>>> today.
>>>
>>> Last version tested: 16
>>>
>>> <end of section>
>>>
>>> My conclusion is that the blind student who feels that Minitab is the
>>> option
>>> they must follow is asking for a lot of extra work because their
>>> classmates
>>> won't be able to help, the staff might not be able to help, and Minitab
>>> Inc.
>>> isn't helping either.
>>>
>>> My advice to anyone contemplating use of Minitab is that they should ask
>>> their classmates to turn on the display of commands in the session
>>> window.
>>> Minitab's menus just create code in the background that is then passed
>>> into
>>> the engine. The code can all be typed out (albeit painfully) but it is
>>> achievable. You can save the commands in a text file and run the text
>>> files
>>> but the effort in learning the syntax etc. required for Minitab will
>>> exceed
>>> the effort required to do the same work in a more natural language.
>>>
>>> The only shortcut on offer is that the vast majority of commands printed
>>> need not be typed out in full. For any main command such as "regress"
>>> for
>>> example, you only need to type four letters "regr". It doesn't save much
>>> but
>>> every little bit helps.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I do not have any accessible information about the Minitab
>>> commands
>>> that I used to type out as that was over 15 years ago and life moved on
>>> to
>>> an accessible Minitab (temporarily).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure where to get a version 12 copy either. My one was a
>>> university
>>> licence based copy which became unusable when the licence system changed
>>> over when my colleagues moved from version 14 to 15. The old licence
>>> system
>>> was very easily cracked so Minitab change it. This made my crackable
>>> version
>>> useless for me so I tossed it out years ago.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Justin
>>> Young
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 5:27 a.m.
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab
>>>
>>> Yes that would definitely be interesting to find out.  I've never used
>>> this
>>> software before now and don't know personally how older versions were
>>> accessibility wise, but from what I've read online they were better to
>>> use
>>> with screen readers than the current versions.  Perhaps you have to
>>> activate
>>> the accessibility portion?  If you do, I don't have a clue how that's
>>> done.
>>> Just throwing an idea out there.
>>>
>>> On 6/3/13, Michael Whapples
>>> <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> It certainly was inaccessible when I was using it last year and people
>>> said
>>> it was accessible to an extent in version 12, so it seems like they did
>>> break accessibility.
>>>
>>> If they are claiming it is accessible then it might be worth contacting
>>> them
>>> to find out how to make it accessible.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 03/06/2013 14:20, Paul Chapin wrote:
>>> Am I to understand from this that they managed to take an accessible
>>> product
>>> and make it inaccessible?  They still claim to be 508 compliant but they
>>> don't appear to make the VPAT available on the web.
>>>
>>> Paul Chapin
>>> Academic Technology Specialist
>>> Amherst College
>>> X2144
>>>
>>> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
>>> email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
>>> bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login
>>> as
>>> the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
>>> passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
>>>
>>> From: Justin Young
>>> <jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com>>
>>> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
>>> rg>>
>>> Date: Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:54 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
>>> rg>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab
>>>
>>> Is there anywhere to find MiniTab version 12?
>>>
>>> On 6/2/13, Justin Young
>>> <jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> I think we might talk about that at some point.  Thanks for your
>>> help!:)
>>>
>>> On 6/2/13, Michael Whapples
>>> <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> The plugin I referred to is a plugin for the statistics package called R
>>> http://www.r-project.org and was to produce the graphs for statistical
>>> process control (SPC). Other than minitab can do SPC and so can the
>>> plugin,
>>> there is no relationship between the two (IE. the one does not provide
>>> an
>>> interface for the other, they are purely alternative software for doing
>>> SPC).
>>>
>>> If SPC is a topic you will be covering then I can look back at my work
>>> to
>>> remind myself what the R plugin is called and where it can be obtained
>>> from.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 02/06/2013 00:23, Justin Young wrote:
>>> Thanks for the feedback.  Where/how do you get this "plug-in"?
>>> Thanks so much!
>>>
>>> On 6/1/13, Michael Whapples
>>> <mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> It was about a year ago, or 18 months, I was on a course where minitab
>>> was
>>> used as part of the course. You are correct about the accessibility (I
>>> think
>>> it was version 12 which was the last accessible version).
>>> However my university was unable to get hold of version 12, however they
>>> were agreeable for me to use other software for the tasks. May be
>>> something
>>> similar could be done in your case.
>>>
>>> You probably can find other software for the tasks you would need to
>>> undertake. What the alternative software is might depend a bit on what
>>> precisely needs to be done. In my case I ended up using R and a plugin,
>>> however R may not be the best option for everything.
>>> Sometimes for simpler things even excel can be enough.
>>>
>>>      From what I have heard, minitab 12 was usable with a screen reader
>>> but
>>> I have not had any practical experience and only know what others have
>>> told
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I feel this has not been too specific, but I would imagine if you went
>>> down
>>> the route of using other tools then there would be people who would be
>>> willing to help you learn how to use it for the tasks you need to
>>> perform.
>>> Feel free to ask questions on what accessible tools may be good for
>>> certain
>>> tasks.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 01/06/2013 20:50, Justin Young wrote:
>>> Hello:
>>>
>>> My name is Justin Young and I'm a blind student currently taking an
>>> intro
>>> stats course which is a prerequesit for a master's program that I'll be
>>> starting in the Fall.  I just subscribed officially to this list today,
>>> but
>>> before I did I tried sending a message so not sure if that message will
>>> be
>>> sent as well.  If it is, I apologize for the double posting.  My course
>>> is
>>> using a program called MiniTab 16 and I've never used it before.  I
>>> tried
>>> playing with the program that I installed on my computer and its not
>>> really
>>> fun to play with, haha!
>>> I came across a thread via google from this list on this subject and
>>> wanted
>>> to ask a few questions.  I believe the last version accessible to screen
>>> readers was version 12 or 13?  How many on this list have heard of it or
>>> have used this program?  Any suggestions, advice, comments you have are
>>> greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Justin Young
>>>
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>
> --
> ---
> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
>
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