[Blindmath] Minitab

Sat Jun 8 09:57:35 UTC 2013

Hi Paul,

I'd like a copy of the documents mentioned.

Personally, I find SPSS less accessible than I'd like. I know there are
others on this list that do use it but I wouldn't recommend it's use by
someone unless they were using it at the same time as their classmates or
could rely on good support services.

I use R extensively and list members who have been around longer than you
will know that I favour its use over all other options. From an
accessibility standpoint, R is about as good as it gets for statistical
software. See http://r-resources.massey.ac.nz for more.

I'm pleased to note that there are a growing number of other R users on this
list. I think their number now exceeds the SPSS users and SAS users, so I'd
expect others to be able to help any of your students that need us.

Btw: Have I mentioned that R and I were born less than 5km apart?

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Chapin
Sent: Saturday, 8 June 2013 3:44 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab

I've been in contact with Minitab and got the following response,

"We received your message about Minitab accessibility for blind users.  I'm
sorry for the delay, but I'm still awaiting a statement from our Legal
department, who originally drafted that message.

"I'm attaching two relevant documents that aren't directly available on our
website.

"The Word document explains a test I did some years ago about Minitab 15
with the JAWS screen reader.  Minitab 16 is essentially the same as 15 in
all aspects relevant to screen-readers, so the conclusions apply to 16 too.

"I certainly agree Minitab essentially fails to work with screen-readers.
My impression on the compliance angle - and this is what I'm waiting for
Legal to explain officially and fully, so this is just my hypothesis - is
that compliance is not literally tied to functional success with
screen-readers unfortunately.  It may have more to do with the matter being
prioritized in our product plan for the future.  We only release new
versions every 3-4 years, and it seems that acceptable compatibility with
screen-readers would require an extensive re-write of the underlying code,
some of which is over 10 years old (Minitab software first came out in the
70s).

"The JAWS document I attached was prepared for the developers who are
creating that future product plan.  So I trust it's definitely on our radar,
but admittedly it's not our top priority at the moment.  We are finishing up
release 17, which kept the developers busy adding new statistical features.

"I'll be in touch again when my legal department clarifies the statement on
our website."

There were two supplied documents.  The first appears to be an internal
evaluation of Minitab and Jaws and came to the same conclusions that have
been mentioned on this list. The second is the VPAT and it was enough to
make be distrust VPATs since it used weasel words to get around issues. I
can supply copies of the two documents if anyone is interested.  It may be
possible to have software that's 508 compliant but not screen reader
enabled, but it kind of misses the point. I think we're going to have to
warn our faculty who use Minitab that they should look for an alternative
before they have a blind student in their course. Fortunately we're not a
big Minitab campus. We've been mostly using SPSS but appear to be heading in
the direction of R.  Anyone have experience with either of those packages?

Paul Chapin
Academic Technology Specialist
Amherst College
X2144

Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login as
the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.

From: Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
Date: Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:31 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab

I'm not sure if this is accurate because I haven't tried it yet, but I've
been told that JAWS 13 can work with MiniTab?  They're installing it onto a
computer in one of the labs where minitab is available and once I have tried
it I'll post again.  Thanks

Justin

On 6/5/13, John G. Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>>
wrote:
We really need to get the NFB and/ore the ACB to take this stuff seriously.
I started a group called the International Association of Visually Impaired
Technologists to deal with issues similar to this because the NFB would
rather deal with issues that effect large numbers of blind people even if
the problems are fairly minor. Minitab might be completely inaccessible but
they won't be willing to  deal with that problem because so few blind people
use Minitab.

So I started the International Association of Visually Impaired
Technologists to address problems of this type. Unfortunately, so far, my
efforts have met with one huge yawn from tblind people themselves.
But you can visit our web site at www.iavit.org.

If you guys want to get together to try to do something about accessibility
of spss and minitab, I think I can arrange for IAVIT's
lawyer to be in on a skype   meeting.   The lawyer is doing his work for
us pro-bono (for free) so I can't promise anything on his behalf.  But I can
tell you he is passionate about these issues. He may be willing to help.

On 06/05/13 06:32, Paul Chapin wrote:
Being in the US I have to start with the things we use. I need to verify
that the problem is real which would include getting the vendor response.
Next I have to warn any instructors who use it that the moment a blind
student walks into there class that software package is going to have to go.
And finally I have to find a reasonable alternative. The list of things that
don't work appears longer than the list of what does.

Paul Chapin
Academic Technology Specialist
Amherst College

On Jun 4, 2013, at 8:15 PM, "Jonathan Godfrey"
<a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>
wrote:

Hi Paul,

I've communicated this with sales reps and no further. It's been a very long
time since I've seen a sales rep at a conference or visiting our university
though.

As I am not a US national living overseas or resident in the US, I can't
rely on legislation like s508 of the ADA to help any claim I might make with
Minitab. New Zealand doesn't have any legislation that would help me at all
on this topic as it happens and the community that might be interested in
such legislation is too small at present to get some introduced. We also
have the challenge that the majority of commercial operators like Minitab
Inc. could just walk away without too much pain and suffering on their
account as we are just too small to matter.

If enough interest is found for making a more meaningful approach to
Minitab, I'd like to be part of it. The problem is that once started on this
route, you'd need to write up a small shopping list of similar software
products that should be targeted. My standards of accessibility are
different to some others on this list though. While some are willing to
persevere with SPSS, I am not. Ditto for Minitab. Other products are just
awful from an accessibility standpoint and would find universal condemnation
from the blindness community. Statistica and GenStat are two products in
this situation.

Who do we take on first?

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Chapin
Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 1:04 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab

Has this information been sent to Minitab?  They seem to think they don't
have a problem.

Paul Chapin
Academic Technology Specialist
Amherst College
X2144

Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login as
the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.

From: Jonathan Godfrey
<a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz><mailto:a.j.godfre
y at massey.ac.nz>>
Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg>>
Date: Monday, June 3, 2013 6:45 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg>>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Minitab

Hi all,

It's been a holiday weekend here and I couldn't send email while I was away.
Minitab is one statistical package I do need to know a lot about and still
must even though it is no longer accessible for me.

I'm not sure if it's my material on the web Justin is referring to but I
have documented my experiences with Minitab and other statistics software
at:
http://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/statsoftware/

The Minitab part of that page says:
Minitab
I have used versions 8.2, 10.1, 11, 12.2.1, 13.3, 14,15, and 16 of Minitab.
The last version of Minitab that was accessible was version 13. This version
is now well out of date and will not function on more recent versions of
Windows.

Version 14 use a different worksheet for data which was not accessible
although this is not so much of a problem once data is successfully
imported. Students needing to use Minitab might succeed using version 14 if
data is given in Minitab format. Another issue is that some dialogue boxes
new to this version were not accessible. This includes the design of
experiments and graph creation dialogues.

Versions 15 and 16 have been altered to improve the visual experience of the
sighted user. Menu items that have no relevance at the specific time that a
user pulls up that menu are greyed out. This causes screen readers grief and
the wrong item is read aloud in the majority of situations. I have used both
of these versions (unwillingly) to create material similar to that created
by my students, but my ability to do this is heavily reliant on my memory of
the menus and dialogue boxes built up from previous versions of Minitab.

Use of the command language of Minitab does remain an option. I started
working this way in version 8.2 (for DOS) in 1995 while my sighted
classmates were using a windows version (10.1 I think). My reason for using
8.2 was not a Minitab issue but was due to the inability of blind people to
successfully work with the Windows operating system prior to Windows 95.

The command syntax is not as intuitive as other languages and it is
difficult to find people who are comfortable using the command language
today.

Last version tested: 16

<end of section>

My conclusion is that the blind student who feels that Minitab is the option
they must follow is asking for a lot of extra work because their classmates
won't be able to help, the staff might not be able to help, and Minitab Inc.
isn't helping either.

My advice to anyone contemplating use of Minitab is that they should ask
their classmates to turn on the display of commands in the session window.
Minitab's menus just create code in the background that is then passed into
the engine. The code can all be typed out (albeit painfully) but it is
achievable. You can save the commands in a text file and run the text files
but the effort in learning the syntax etc. required for Minitab will exceed
the effort required to do the same work in a more natural language.

The only shortcut on offer is that the vast majority of commands printed
need not be typed out in full. For any main command such as "regress"
for
example, you only need to type four letters "regr". It doesn't save much but
every little bit helps.

Sorry, I do not have any accessible information about the Minitab commands
that I used to type out as that was over 15 years ago and life moved on to
an accessible Minitab (temporarily).

I'm not sure where to get a version 12 copy either. My one was a university
licence based copy which became unusable when the licence system changed
over when my colleagues moved from version 14 to 15. The old licence system
was very easily cracked so Minitab change it. This made my crackable version
useless for me so I tossed it out years ago.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin
Young
Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 5:27 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab

Yes that would definitely be interesting to find out.  I've never used this
software before now and don't know personally how older versions were
accessibility wise, but from what I've read online they were better to use
with screen readers than the current versions.  Perhaps you have to activate
the accessibility portion?  If you do, I don't have a clue how that's done.
Just throwing an idea out there.

On 6/3/13, Michael Whapples
<mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com>>
wrote:
It certainly was inaccessible when I was using it last year and people said
it was accessible to an extent in version 12, so it seems like they did
break accessibility.

If they are claiming it is accessible then it might be worth contacting them
to find out how to make it accessible.

Michael Whapples
On 03/06/2013 14:20, Paul Chapin wrote:
Am I to understand from this that they managed to take an accessible product
and make it inaccessible?  They still claim to be 508 compliant but they
don't appear to make the VPAT available on the web.

Paul Chapin
Academic Technology Specialist
Amherst College
X2144

Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login as
the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.

From: Justin Young
<jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:j
ty727 at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg>>
Date: Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:54 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg><mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.o
rg>>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MiniTab

Is there anywhere to find MiniTab version 12?

On 6/2/13, Justin Young
<jty727 at gmail.com<mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:jty727 at gmail.com><mailto:j
ty727 at gmail.com>>
wrote:
I think we might talk about that at some point.  Thanks for your
help!:)

On 6/2/13, Michael Whapples
<mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailt
o:mwhapples at aim.com>>
wrote:
The plugin I referred to is a plugin for the statistics package called R
http://www.r-project.org and was to produce the graphs for statistical
process control (SPC). Other than minitab can do SPC and so can the plugin,
there is no relationship between the two (IE. the one does not provide an
interface for the other, they are purely alternative software for doing
SPC).

If SPC is a topic you will be covering then I can look back at my work to
remind myself what the R plugin is called and where it can be obtained from.

Michael Whapples
On 02/06/2013 00:23, Justin Young wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.  Where/how do you get this "plug-in"?
Thanks so much!

On 6/1/13, Michael Whapples
<mwhapples at aim.com<mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailto:mwhapples at aim.com><mailt
o:mwhapples at aim.com>>
wrote:
Hello,
It was about a year ago, or 18 months, I was on a course where minitab was
used as part of the course. You are correct about the accessibility (I think
it was version 12 which was the last accessible version).
However my university was unable to get hold of version 12, however they
were agreeable for me to use other software for the tasks. May be something
similar could be done in your case.

You probably can find other software for the tasks you would need to
undertake. What the alternative software is might depend a bit on what
precisely needs to be done. In my case I ended up using R and a plugin,
however R may not be the best option for everything.
Sometimes for simpler things even excel can be enough.

      From what I have heard, minitab 12 was usable with a screen reader but
I have not had any practical experience and only know what others have told
me.

I feel this has not been too specific, but I would imagine if you went down
the route of using other tools then there would be people who would be
willing to help you learn how to use it for the tasks you need to perform.
Feel free to ask questions on what accessible tools may be good for certain
tasks.

Michael Whapples
On 01/06/2013 20:50, Justin Young wrote:
Hello:

My name is Justin Young and I'm a blind student currently taking an intro
stats course which is a prerequesit for a master's program that I'll be
starting in the Fall.  I just subscribed officially to this list today, but
before I did I tried sending a message so not sure if that message will be
sent as well.  If it is, I apologize for the double posting.  My course is
using a program called MiniTab 16 and I've never used it before.  I tried
playing with the program that I installed on my computer and its not really
fun to play with, haha!
I came across a thread via google from this list on this subject and wanted
to ask a few questions.  I believe the last version accessible to screen
readers was version 12 or 13?  How many on this list have heard of it or
have used this program?  Any suggestions, advice, comments you have are
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Justin Young

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