[Blindmath] LaTeX

Sat Jun 15 20:41:08 UTC 2013

Hi Neil (and others),

I agree that my shortcuts are not directly transferable to MathType etc. but they do work with the tex4ht implementation as long as the underlying code I point to works with tex4ht. I haven't struck an exception yet.

I guess I could ask the MathType developers when we will be able to use the full power of latex in MS Word documents when MathType is installed. Surely a preferences section could cover things like the packages we want and the like. I'm sure this would open up a whole new world of problems so perhaps I'll just wait patiently. There ar so many reasons why MS Word and MathType can't bring me back from latex though, that this improvement wont' be sufficient - it would be necessary however.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
Sent: Saturday, 15 June 2013 10:17 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX

The power to extend TeX as you do is what has kept TeX alive for close to
30 years.  It is also what makes it so hard to use for input to other programs.  If you past TeX with those extensions into another program such as MathType or a web page using MathJax, it won't know what they mean -- that code won't be portable.

Power is a two-edged sword...

Neil Soiffer
Senior Scientist
Design Science, Inc.
www.dessci.com
~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Godfrey
<a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Michael has picked up on most things I would have said, but here are a 
> couple of other bits that I find useful.
>
> I frequently compile my latex documents into both pdf and xml. Many of 
> my mathematical expressions are easily handled by mathplayer. Note 
> that I can and usually do just read the latex source, because waiting 
> for eyes to come through my office isn't always practical. This 
> doesn't tell me about the possible overflows that exist on the printed 
> pdf though. This is one problem I haven't found any useful solution 
> for as yet. One day, I hope to have some sort of tactical rendering of 
> the page so that line overflows stick out and I can pick them up.
>
> I frequently create my own latex commands. For example, I created a 
> command called \SumAllI{} which just replaced the \sum_{i=1}^{n}{}. 
> You might think this was just a bit unnecessary, but my command makes 
> reading a long expression cleaner, especially when I then created 
> other commands for summing over two and three counters., 
> \DoubleSumIJ{} for example is much easier in Jaws than 
> \sum_{i=1}^{n}{\sum_{j=1}^{p}{ }} especially given that these expressions don't even sum anything yet.
>
> To add to the list, I create codes for:
> - special characters such as mathematical symbols such as the set of 
> integers.
> - acronyms that include symbols or unnecessarily long typing. In my 
> thesis the expression G×E appeared frequently. In latex that's 
> G$\times$E which is slower than my \GByE.
> - combination commands that change the font style and add the word to 
> the index (OK serious stuff now but I need it.)
> - new figure and table environments. Yes I sometimes ignore the 
> standard ones given in latex, well actually I build on top of them. I 
> created environments that handled sets of graphs for example. I wanted 
> every figure that had four small figures in it to look the same throughout my thesis.
> And
> then when I had six sub-figures they had to be rotated 90 degrees and 
> always appear on a right hand page. The commands got complex so I 
> fixed them once and used my substitute codes everywhere.
>
> My rule of thumb is "Jonathan's rule of two." If I do a task and I 
> believe that in my lifetime I will do it twice, I write general code 
> rather than specific code. It takes longer and often more than twice 
> as long to do this but as soon as I do the task for the third time I 
> save heaps of time. I apply my rule in any number of situations. If I 
> can't do the job using software that allows me to work this way, I 
> make time to switch my way of working. The two most obvious changes I 
> have made in life is the abandonment of MS Office and Minitab. I still 
> know how to use both of course, but I use them when I know the job 
> doesn't warrant a general solution.
>
> A lot of what I've written here was built up over the last fifteen 
> years. I wouldn't expect a latex novice to follow my way of working from the start.
> Learning a few tricks at the outset might help, but might also be a 
> serious distraction.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Michael Whapples
> Sent: Friday, 14 June 2013 10:04 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>
> Yes I agree with what has been said about tools such as pdflatex 
> working well, they are reliable enough one can almost always assume it 
> has produced correct output for the code which was input. However the 
> big problem is was the LaTeX source correct for what the author 
> wanted? I actually put potential problems into three categories: 
> Invalid code which will not compile and the LaTeX tools will give an 
> error, LaTeX code which is valid but has problems the compiler knows 
> will be giving poor output with the compiler giving a warning and 
> valid LaTeX code where the user did not fully understand what the LaTeX source code will do.
>
> The first of these is easiest to spot, normally pdflatex or other 
> compilers will stop requiring input from the user or if it does exit 
> then you will know it failed as no PDF will be created. Also some 
> editors might pick up on some of these errors and can take you to the 
> location of the error in the source document.
>
> The hardest thing with errors is sometimes knowing where it came from, 
> LaTeX might only pick up on the error much further on in the document 
> than where the mistake was made (eg. if you forget to use a closing 
> brace it might get to the end of the document before realising there 
> is a problem). My advice would be to be careful while writing the 
> LaTeX, if starting an environment put the end environment in at the 
> same time and write between the two (some editors can do this 
> automatically for you).
> Should errors still get in (they probably will) it can also be useful 
> to keep compiling the LaTeX frequently, then you know only a small 
> amount has been added since the last successful compile and so know if 
> an error is there it must be in the small amount added.
>
> Catching warnings is harder, as I said the document will actually 
> compile (eg. if you write a long equation but do not put in the line 
> breaks so that it goes on multiple lines you may get a box over flow 
> warning which alerts you the equation will fall off the page). My best 
> advice is just look through the output of pdflatex checking for these. 
> I know output from pdflatex can be quite a lot, some editors I think 
> can also pick out warnings and give them in a list.
>
> The sort where the LaTeX source code does not do what the user thought 
> it did is probably the hardest and one I have not really found a good 
> solution to do independently. Some examples which have caught me out: 
> In PGF/TikZ I did not realise that when drawing a line from a circle 
> it would start at the centre of the circle. Another one was where I 
> tried to include Python source code in the document (to show readers 
> python source code), I got mixed up on which environments would 
> preserve spaces as it is important for python code.
> I think in both cases I only found out by asking someone to give the 
> documents a visual check. As one learns LaTeX these problems should 
> become fewer but you probably will from time to time encounter one 
> when you need to do something different.
> You possibly also will have ideas where there may be these sorts of 
> problems, or at least know where visual appearance is most important, 
> and so could go into more detail with the sighted person on those 
> particular parts of the document and possibly skip other parts.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 13/06/2013 19:31, Neil Soiffer wrote:
> > Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm 100% behind most people's 
> > suggestion that learning LaTeX for math is a good idea.  Any 
> > mainstream LaTeX converter such as pdftex will do the conversion
> properly.
> >
> > But, using LaTex has one really big problem if you are blind -- 
> > you'll never know if you got it "right" or not.  It is very easy, 
> > even for experienced TeX users to make a typo and that can result in 
> > either fatal errors (you probably would get an error message about 
> > that) or meaningful errors such as no exponent (missing "^") or 
> > wrong chars in the
> exponent.
> >   Without visually "proofing" the answer, you don't know if what you 
> > typed is right.  I suppose converting to MathML and then listening 
> > to or brailling the convert result are ways to check whether you 
> > entered it correctly.  Others on the list like Michael probably have 
> > developed useful methods to checking what you typed.  I'm sure they 
> > join the discussion with their suggestions.
> >
> > Neil Soiffer
> > Senior Scientist
> > Design Science, Inc.
> > www.dessci.com
> > ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation 
> > Editor ~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Paul Chapin <pdchapin at amherst.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> There are several Latex to Mathml conversion programs out there and 
> >> it would be interesting to see what people's experiences with them 
> >> are, but if Shalini is preparing her material in Latex, wouldn't it 
> >> be best if she did all her editing and proofing on the Latex side?
> >> She could then convert to a pdf and send that to the instructor. 
> >> How comfortable are we with depending of the Latex to pdf 
> >> conversion being
> correct?
> >>
> >> Paul Chapin
> >> Academic Technology Specialist
> >> Amherst College
> >> X2144
> >>
> >> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, 
> >> including by email. Any email asking for any password or username 
> >> is almost certainly bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a 
> >> site that requires a login as the link may be bogus. Type in the 
> >> address yourself. Please keep your passwords private to protect 
> >> yourself and the
> security of our network.
> >>
> >> From: Shalini Menon
> >> <shalini1394 at gmail.com<mailto:shalini1394 at gmail.com>>
> >> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics < 
> >> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> >> Date: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:55 PM
> >> To: "jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>"
> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com <mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>, Blind Math list 
> >> for those interested in mathematics 
> >> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> How do you convert LaTeX to MathML?
> >>
> >> Shalini
> >>
> >> On 6/13/13, Jose Tamayo
> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> Well, let's check if the LaTeX - Access projectis further along.  
> >> IT promises to provide JAWS access to LaTeX through any of the 
> >> standard windows applications or even Adobe reader.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jose Tamayo
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> >> Rasmussen, Lloyd
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:19 PM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> There is nothing you can do with a screen reader and Adobe Reader 
> >> to make PDF math readable.  You either have to learn LaTeX syntax 
> >> or convert the expressions to MathML.
> >>
> >> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service 
> >> for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
> >> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
> >> http://www.loc.gov/nls
> >> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect 
> >> those of the Library of Congress, NLS.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> >> Shalini Menon
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:12 AM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot Jonathan.
> >> I have another question. I have been able to write out Math 
> >> equations in LaTeX, but Jaws isn't able to read it very well when I 
> >> convert it to a PDF document. Do I need to convert the LaTeX 
> >> document to MathML and then read it with Math player, or do I need 
> >> to make changes to Jaws settings?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Shalini
> >> ...
> >>
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