[Blindmath] LaTeX

Sat Jun 15 23:02:15 UTC 2013

I think the point is to find whatever works-- regardless of what it is.
For those of us attempting to 'get started', what is working, what is
being widely used and supported, and  are there less-involved methods of
getting documents processed ?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX

> The power to extend TeX as you do is what has kept TeX alive for close to
> 30 years.  It is also what makes it so hard to use for input to other
> programs.  If you past TeX with those extensions into another program such
> as MathType or a web page using MathJax, it won't know what they mean --
> that code won't be portable.
>
> Power is a two-edged sword...
>
> Neil Soiffer
> Senior Scientist
> Design Science, Inc.
> www.dessci.com
> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Godfrey
> <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Michael has picked up on most things I would have said, but here are a
>> couple of other bits that I find useful.
>>
>> I frequently compile my latex documents into both pdf and xml. Many of my
>> mathematical expressions are easily handled by mathplayer. Note that I 
>> can
>> and usually do just read the latex source, because waiting for eyes to 
>> come
>> through my office isn't always practical. This doesn't tell me about the
>> possible overflows that exist on the printed pdf though. This is one
>> problem
>> I haven't found any useful solution for as yet. One day, I hope to have
>> some
>> sort of tactical rendering of the page so that line overflows stick out 
>> and
>> I can pick them up.
>>
>> I frequently create my own latex commands. For example, I created a 
>> command
>> called \SumAllI{} which just replaced the \sum_{i=1}^{n}{}. You might 
>> think
>> this was just a bit unnecessary, but my command makes reading a long
>> expression cleaner, especially when I then created other commands for
>> summing over two and three counters., \DoubleSumIJ{} for example is much
>> easier in Jaws than \sum_{i=1}^{n}{\sum_{j=1}^{p}{ }} especially given 
>> that
>> these expressions don't even sum anything yet.
>>
>> To add to the list, I create codes for:
>> - special characters such as mathematical symbols such as the set of
>> integers.
>> - acronyms that include symbols or unnecessarily long typing. In my 
>> thesis
>> the expression G×E appeared frequently. In latex that's G$\times$E which 
>> is
>> slower than my \GByE.
>> - combination commands that change the font style and add the word to the
>> index (OK serious stuff now but I need it.)
>> - new figure and table environments. Yes I sometimes ignore the standard
>> ones given in latex, well actually I build on top of them. I created
>> environments that handled sets of graphs for example. I wanted every 
>> figure
>> that had four small figures in it to look the same throughout my thesis.
>> And
>> then when I had six sub-figures they had to be rotated 90 degrees and
>> always
>> appear on a right hand page. The commands got complex so I fixed them 
>> once
>> and used my substitute codes everywhere.
>>
>> My rule of thumb is "Jonathan's rule of two." If I do a task and I 
>> believe
>> that in my lifetime I will do it twice, I write general code rather than
>> specific code. It takes longer and often more than twice as long to do 
>> this
>> but as soon as I do the task for the third time I save heaps of time. I
>> apply my rule in any number of situations. If I can't do the job using
>> software that allows me to work this way, I make time to switch my way of
>> working. The two most obvious changes I have made in life is the
>> abandonment
>> of MS Office and Minitab. I still know how to use both of course, but I 
>> use
>> them when I know the job doesn't warrant a general solution.
>>
>> A lot of what I've written here was built up over the last fifteen years. 
>> I
>> wouldn't expect a latex novice to follow my way of working from the 
>> start.
>> Learning a few tricks at the outset might help, but might also be a 
>> serious
>> distraction.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Michael
>> Whapples
>> Sent: Friday, 14 June 2013 10:04 a.m.
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>>
>> Yes I agree with what has been said about tools such as pdflatex working
>> well, they are reliable enough one can almost always assume it has 
>> produced
>> correct output for the code which was input. However the big problem is 
>> was
>> the LaTeX source correct for what the author wanted? I actually put
>> potential problems into three categories: Invalid code which will not
>> compile and the LaTeX tools will give an error, LaTeX code which is valid
>> but has problems the compiler knows will be giving poor output with the
>> compiler giving a warning and valid LaTeX code where the user did not 
>> fully
>> understand what the LaTeX source code will do.
>>
>> The first of these is easiest to spot, normally pdflatex or other 
>> compilers
>> will stop requiring input from the user or if it does exit then you will
>> know it failed as no PDF will be created. Also some editors might pick up
>> on
>> some of these errors and can take you to the location of the error in the
>> source document.
>>
>> The hardest thing with errors is sometimes knowing where it came from,
>> LaTeX
>> might only pick up on the error much further on in the document than 
>> where
>> the mistake was made (eg. if you forget to use a closing brace it might 
>> get
>> to the end of the document before realising there is a problem). My 
>> advice
>> would be to be careful while writing the LaTeX, if starting an 
>> environment
>> put the end environment in at the same time and write between the two 
>> (some
>> editors can do this automatically for you).
>> Should errors still get in (they probably will) it can also be useful to
>> keep compiling the LaTeX frequently, then you know only a small amount 
>> has
>> been added since the last successful compile and so know if an error is
>> there it must be in the small amount added.
>>
>> Catching warnings is harder, as I said the document will actually compile
>> (eg. if you write a long equation but do not put in the line breaks so 
>> that
>> it goes on multiple lines you may get a box over flow warning which 
>> alerts
>> you the equation will fall off the page). My best advice is just look
>> through the output of pdflatex checking for these. I know output from
>> pdflatex can be quite a lot, some editors I think can also pick out
>> warnings
>> and give them in a list.
>>
>> The sort where the LaTeX source code does not do what the user thought it
>> did is probably the hardest and one I have not really found a good 
>> solution
>> to do independently. Some examples which have caught me out: In PGF/TikZ 
>> I
>> did not realise that when drawing a line from a circle it would start at
>> the
>> centre of the circle. Another one was where I tried to include Python
>> source
>> code in the document (to show readers python source code), I got mixed up
>> on
>> which environments would preserve spaces as it is important for python
>> code.
>> I think in both cases I only found out by asking someone to give the
>> documents a visual check. As one learns LaTeX these problems should 
>> become
>> fewer but you probably will from time to time encounter one when you need
>> to
>> do something different.
>> You possibly also will have ideas where there may be these sorts of
>> problems, or at least know where visual appearance is most important, and
>> so
>> could go into more detail with the sighted person on those particular 
>> parts
>> of the document and possibly skip other parts.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 13/06/2013 19:31, Neil Soiffer wrote:
>> > Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm 100% behind most people's
>> > suggestion that learning LaTeX for math is a good idea.  Any
>> > mainstream LaTeX converter such as pdftex will do the conversion
>> properly.
>> >
>> > But, using LaTex has one really big problem if you are blind -- you'll
>> > never know if you got it "right" or not.  It is very easy, even for
>> > experienced TeX users to make a typo and that can result in either
>> > fatal errors (you probably would get an error message about that) or
>> > meaningful errors such as no exponent (missing "^") or wrong chars in 
>> > the
>> exponent.
>> >   Without visually "proofing" the answer, you don't know if what you
>> > typed is right.  I suppose converting to MathML and then listening to
>> > or brailling the convert result are ways to check whether you entered
>> > it correctly.  Others on the list like Michael probably have developed
>> > useful methods to checking what you typed.  I'm sure they join the
>> > discussion with their suggestions.
>> >
>> > Neil Soiffer
>> > Senior Scientist
>> > Design Science, Inc.
>> > www.dessci.com
>> > ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
>> > ~
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Paul Chapin <pdchapin at amherst.edu>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> There are several Latex to Mathml conversion programs out there and
>> >> it would be interesting to see what people's experiences with them
>> >> are, but if Shalini is preparing her material in Latex, wouldn't it
>> >> be best if she did all her editing and proofing on the Latex side?
>> >> She could then convert to a pdf and send that to the instructor. How
>> >> comfortable are we with depending of the Latex to pdf conversion being
>> correct?
>> >>
>> >> Paul Chapin
>> >> Academic Technology Specialist
>> >> Amherst College
>> >> X2144
>> >>
>> >> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including
>> >> by email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost
>> >> certainly bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that
>> >> requires a login as the link may be bogus. Type in the address
>> >> yourself. Please keep your passwords private to protect yourself and 
>> >> the
>> security of our network.
>> >>
>> >> From: Shalini Menon
>> >> <shalini1394 at gmail.com<mailto:shalini1394 at gmail.com>>
>> >> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
>> >> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>> >> Date: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:55 PM
>> >> To: "jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>"
>> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com <mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>, Blind Math list for
>> >> those interested in mathematics
>> >> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >> How do you convert LaTeX to MathML?
>> >>
>> >> Shalini
>> >>
>> >> On 6/13/13, Jose Tamayo
>> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> Well, let's check if the LaTeX - Access projectis further along.  IT
>> >> promises to provide JAWS access to LaTeX through any of the standard
>> >> windows applications or even Adobe reader.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Jose Tamayo
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> Rasmussen, Lloyd
>> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:19 PM
>> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>> >>
>> >> There is nothing you can do with a screen reader and Adobe Reader to
>> >> make PDF math readable.  You either have to learn LaTeX syntax or
>> >> convert the expressions to MathML.
>> >>
>> >> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service for
>> >> the Blind and Physically Handicapped
>> >> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
>> >> http://www.loc.gov/nls
>> >> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
>> >> those of the Library of Congress, NLS.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> Shalini Menon
>> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:12 AM
>> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>> >>
>> >> Thanks a lot Jonathan.
>> >> I have another question. I have been able to write out Math equations
>> >> in LaTeX, but Jaws isn't able to read it very well when I convert it
>> >> to a PDF document. Do I need to convert the LaTeX document to MathML
>> >> and then read it with Math player, or do I need to make changes to
>> >> Jaws settings?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Shalini
>> >> ...
>> >>
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