[Blindmath] math being visual (was: Typing in Nemeth Braille)

Mon Sep 16 15:38:21 UTC 2013

Remember, these are schools we are talking about here, not people who
are necessarily good at math. Even when sighted people who are good at
math are involved, they can easily lack the intelligence to comprehend
that there is more than one way to process information.

On 9/16/13, I. C. Bray <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> John,
>
> Again, my thoughts exactly.
> I earned an A in my College Trig Class.  I had very limited vision atthe
> time, but I found that trig was easy... Radian Measurements made more sence
> when I started using them alone.
>
> I had honestly more fun with forward & reverse proofs than I ever thought I
> would.
>
> Graphing for me was tough, but I did it!
> I also could describe in words, for my peers, the graphs so that sometimes
> other students understood better.
>
> Something interesting I learned from that Trig Class wasn't math at all...
> it was the fact that there some people with excellent vision that get
> confused by visual stimuli.  I usually wound up working with some of these
> people in the math lab for homework... we had a great group!!
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:56 AM
> Subject: [Blindmath] math being visual (was: Typing in Nemeth Braille)
>
>
> :
> :
> : Wow, that is wierd.  Saying that math is too visual, for it to be
> : practical for blind people -- that's just wierd. Personally, i've never
> : heard that and I doubt any decent mathematician would sayit. Have these
> : people never heard of a "Thought experiment"?
> :
> : In fact, I think it's not just wrong, it's backward.  Being blind gives
> : you an advantage especially in geometry. I've experienced this first
> : hand. If stuck in a situation where they can't draw a diagram, sighted
> : people do very badly on geometric puzzles. Same is true if the problem
> : involves something difficult to draw like a three dimensional puzzle. In
> : those situations, blind people are at a considerable advantage. The
> : problem blind people have with math is a communication problem, not a
> : conceptual one. It it was commonplace for geometry to be taught with
> : tactile representations of the concepts, blind people would be at an
> : advantage.
> :
> : The idea that math is too visual on a basic level strikes me at
> : completely backward at every level of mathematics from understaninding
> : the difference between the numbers one and two all the way up to the
> : math involved in particle physics. The number three, for example, is a
> : concept, not that symbol we use to depict it. Three can be the number of
> : marbles in a box but it is not the lumpy symbol we use to depict it.
> :
> : I once got into a debate, of sourts, with a physics professor because i
> : claimed that the meatball like depiction of the atom is  harmful. That
> : depiction tends to make students think of sub-atomic particles as little
> : balls with the atom being proton and neutron balls clumped together in
> : the middle   and little electron balls flying around it like flies. But
> : it's not really like that at all. And when you have to start
> : understanding things like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the
> : double-slit experiment, it gets in the way.
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : On 09/15/13 18:06, sabra1023 wrote:
> : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for a lot cheaper
> then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even have it the
> books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the book
> digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you cannot fully
> access. I think that we are having these access issues because a big portion
> of the cited population believes that blind people have no right to expect
> success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is just too visual
> and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic algebra, but my
> experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't visual. Sighted
> people might feel the most comfortable with a visual representation, but
> that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've known plenty
> of blind people who went way past calculus and use their skills in
> engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about accessibility
> from the beginning, it wouldn't b
> : e extrem
> : e
> : ly difficult or costly to make sure that blind people as well as other
> populations can have access to math electronic text.
> : >
> : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> : >
> : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth back to standard
> English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from the student,
> open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read it in symbols
> they understand as a sighted person?
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
> : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
> : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : >>>
> : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated "swell"
> paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile diagrams for
> several VI students that I work with, and they have found the diagrams to be
> extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the diagrams (just
> enough to be able to create a separate legend with more information about
> the diagram).
> : >>>
> : >>> Re writing your math homework:  I am currently working on some
> software that would allow you to create and edit your math homework in
> Nemeth Braille.  It's not quite ready for testing yet, however.  I will make
> an announcement when it is ready, because I will be looking for students in
> math or math-intensive science courses to test this software.
> : >>>
> : >>>
> : >>> -----Original Message-----
> : >>> From: sabra1023 [mailto:sabra1023 at gmail.com]
> : >>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:18 AM
> : >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> : >>> Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : >>>
> : >>> All I know is that I write my math homework in Microsoft Word. I have
> to be reading with a braille display, and everything needs to be linear, not
> multidimensional. Also, my brain can't think correctly if I have to work
> from right to left. I don't know if those math needs are common among blind
> people, but you could try them to see if it helps. Oh, and another thing is
> that it might help to get text descriptions of diagrams and represent things
> algebraically rather then graphically as much as possible.
> : >>>
> : >>> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> : >>>
> : >>>> Neil,
> : >>>> Well, I am going to need to use something, and I have been putting
> off
> : >>>> deciding until I get some idea what's out there and what makes sence
> for me.
> : >>>> I don't want to have to learn 5 new programs and try to keep the
> : >>>> command & control sets seperate...
> : >>>> I've been reading the BlindMath ListServ and hearing the difficulties
> : >>>> and am just hoping I collect enough info and various ways to approach
> : >>>> my own Math, Science, and Teaching needs now that I'm blind.
> : >>>>
> : >>>> OH, Side note question.
> : >>>> Is the Blind Science listserv not active??  I Joined the list, and do
> : >>>> not think I got any replies...
> : >>>>
> : >>>> Ian
> : >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> : >>>> From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
> : >>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> : >>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> : >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:52 AM
> : >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>> : You can also use MathType with Word and then use Duxbury to
> : >>>> translate to
> : >>>> : Nemeth.  Like Scientific notebook, with MathType you just type the
> : >>>> math in
> : >>>> : using an easy math editor. If you are a familiar with Word, it is
> : >>>> probably
> : >>>> : a better option than getting Scientific Notebook and having to
> learn that.
> : >>>> : MathType is just a math editor and so is a lot cheaper than
> : >>>> Scientific
> : >>>> : notebook.  Your school might already have a site license [full
> disclosure:
> : >>>> : my company makes MathType]
> : >>>> :
> : >>>> : Neil Soiffer
> : >>>> : Senior Scientist
> : >>>> : Design Science, Inc.
> : >>>> : www.dessci.com
> : >>>> : ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation
> : >>>> Editor ~
> : >>>> :
> : >>>> :
> : >>>> :
> : >>>> : On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Allan Mesoga
> : >>>> <allan.mesoga at gmail.com>wrote:
> : >>>> :
> : >>>> : > You can also use scientific notebook and save it as latex and
> open
> : >>>> it
> : >>>> : > using duxbury then translate.
> : >>>> : >
> : >>>> : > On 9/10/13, Sharon O'Neill <soneill1 at haverford.edu> wrote:
> : >>>> : > > Hi Gabriela:  were you able to find an answer to the Nemeth
> : >>>> Braille
> : >>>> : > > software question?  I see they directed you to the fellow that
> : >>>> has
> : >>>> : > revamped
> : >>>> : > > the nfbnet list for blindmath.  Were you able to contact him?
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > > I would be very interested in what he suggested.
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > > Regards,
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > > Sheri
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gabriela Moats
> : >>>> <gmoats at haverford.edu>
> : >>>> : > > wrote:
> : >>>> : > >
> : >>>> : > >> Hi all,
> : >>>> : > >> I need to make raised tactile images that contain labels with
> : >>>> math
> : >>>> : > >> symbols for a blind student and he would like them to be typed
> : >>>> in Nemeth
> : >>>> : > >> Braille. Usually I just type them in SimBraille font and then
> : >>>> feed it
> : >>>> : > >> through an embosser so that the dots become raised Braille,
> but
> : >>>> I need
> : >>>> : > to
> : >>>> : > >> be able to type in Nemeth Braille for this science course.
> Does
> : >>>> anyone
> : >>>> : > >> know
> : >>>> : > >> of a software program or font I can download that would allow
> : >>>> me to do
> : >>>> : > >> this?
> : >>>> : > >>
> : >>>> : > >> Thank you,
> : >>>> : > >>
> : >>>> : > >> Gabriela
> : >>>> : > >>
> : >>>> : > >> --
> : >>>> : > >> Gabriela Echavarría Moats
> : >>>> : > >> Special Assignment Coordinator of Accommodations
> : >>>> : > >> Office of Disabilities Services
> : >>>> : > >> Haverford College
> : >>>> : > >> Stokes Hall 118F
> : >>>> : > >> gmoats at haverford.edu
> : >>>> : > >> _______________________________________________
> : >>>> : > >> Blindmath mailing list
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> : >>>>
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> : >>>> rford.edu
> : >>>> : > >>
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> : >>
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> :
> : --
> : ---
> : John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
> :
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