[Blindmath] books in accessible format

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Tue Sep 17 11:00:19 UTC 2013 

Ian,

This is more of an answer based upon some knowledge but also some faith and hope, but I think we will see improvements in getting our hands on 
electronic math texts over time.  Our whole interacdtion with electronic texts is still evolving some.  Various people even on this list have different 
approaches that each hold some value.  Over time, as we gain more experience, we will probably see a more or less standard approach emerge that will 
make it easier for publishers to deal with this.  In saying that, I suspect there will always be some alternatives because there will be specific cases where 
one approach works better than others even if that approach is not what might become a standard.  We have to keep the problem visible, though, and 
we have to continue helping blind people who have an aptitude for math get the support they need.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

		On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 02:20:28 -0400, I. C. Bray wrote:

>Finally
>A reasonable and astute reasoning!
>OK, the fact is that just because no one can or does currently,
>does not preclude the fact that we can or could in the future!
>I am just glad there are smarter people than I out there that know.

>Anyone want to start a Publishing Company?  I'm not very busy theese days!? 
>LOL!

>Ian





>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
>To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
><blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
><blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format


>: It really isn't hard for publishing companies to make their work 
>accessible. It wouldn't just benefit blind people. These accessibility 
>features would benefit about 10% of the population. People uses screen 
>readers and electronic textbooks for other reasons rather than just being 
>blind. Some people have dyslexia. Some people have cerebral palsy, even know 
>they might be able to see, their eyes might not be able to focus well enough 
>on the text, so they may need a screen reader as well. Some people might be 
>able to physically see the printed text, but they need additional access 
>because they are using a specialized keyboard or dictation software, which 
>means that they Soli need to navigate through the book with keyboard only 
>methods. It's true that after publisher has already made a document, the 
>editing to make it accessible can be quite extensive, but if publishers 
>think about accessibility at the beginning, extensive editing won't be 
>necessary. Further, the Nfb is forwardin!
>: g legislation called teach so that schools won't be able to purchase an 
>accessible materials. Therefore, it really would be in the publisher's best 
>interest to just conform. I believe the bill will pass because lots of other 
>organizations are already supporting the Nfb. The publishers could still 
>make a profit for their accessible books and accompanying software if 
>applicable. In fact, the publishers are ensuring that they make less of a 
>profit when they don't make their products accessible. Maybe I'm wrong, but 
>I don't think there is any blindness organization that exists right now that 
>has the resources, personnel, and copyright permissions to start their own 
>accessible publishing company. The most effective use of resources would be 
>to get those people who want to join a publishing company and have them 
>volunteer for book share adding new books and editing old books to increase 
>accessibility. However, I hope that in the future, all of this extra work 
>won't even be necess!
>: ary because the publishers will have thought about all this ahead of time 
>and spirit lots of people hundreds of hours of heartache.
>:
>: On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
>:
>: > John,
>: > What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely
>: > BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message -----  
>organization
>: > who's mission is to provide a facility that employs blind, vision 
>impaired,
>: > and sighted individuals to do standardization of accessibil materials 
>for
>: > any and all other companies such as Text Book Publishers, Electronics
>: > Manufacturers, and any other "group" that wishes to produce accessible
>: > options for it's customers.
>: > Rather than have every company attempt to make their products 
>accessible,
>: > have the NFBPublishing company a "partner"  to get it done.
>: >
>: > The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't do
>: > extreemely up to date texts.  I find the majority of the products to be
>: > rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that prohibitive.
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: > Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is needed and 
>ship
>: > it to the customer.
>: >
>: > Ian
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>: > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>: > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>: > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
>: > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
>: >
>: >
>: > : I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would 
>love
>: > : to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that easy?
>: > : Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit
>: > : company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't know.
>: > : I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
>: > :
>: > : I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what I read 
>on
>: > : this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different
>: > : directions. That seems to be the case in everything from non-profits 
>to
>: > : software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but there
>: > : does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem. And 
>it
>: > : seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the
>: > : pieces fit together.
>: > :
>: > :
>: > : On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
>: > : > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
>: > : > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release 
>items,
>: > : > publications, and electronics etc.
>: > : > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and perhaps
>: > Software
>: > : > Developers...
>: > : > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or would 
>be
>: > : > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else 
>for
>: > : > functionality.
>: > : >
>: > : > Example:
>: > : > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
>: > : > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release
>: > preliminary,
>: > : > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my hypothetical
>: > : > publishing company.
>: > : > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be
>: > available
>: > : > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either OCR-Tag PDF
>: > copies,
>: > : > have them recorded in audio and get them published into braille or 
>just
>: > BRF
>: > : > formats.
>: > : >
>: > : > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material, and we
>: > have
>: > : > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of what is 
>best
>: > : > needed, we do it all.
>: > : > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the 
>customer
>: > : > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and Receipt from 
>the
>: > : > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
>: > : > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible Version, 
>or
>: > the
>: > : > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the 
>other
>: > too.
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there would 
>not
>: > be
>: > : > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of 
>publishing
>: > ANY
>: > : > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus making 
>it
>: > : > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics & 
>Linear
>: > : > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
>: > : >
>: > : > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise here... 
>I'm
>: > : > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
>: > : >
>: > : > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly 
>impossible
>: > to
>: > : > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
>: > : >
>: > : > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource 
>Centers
>: > is
>: > : > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible material for 
>only
>: > a
>: > : > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the 
>texts
>: > ALL
>: > : > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number 
>published
>: > : > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
>: > : >
>: > : > Ian
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : > ----- Original Message -----
>: > : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>: > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>: > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>: > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
>: > : > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
>: > : > NemethBraille)
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you
>: > describe
>: > : > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of what
>: > : > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally
>: > membership
>: > : > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they used to
>: > send
>: > : > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they might have
>: > worked
>: > : > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't 
>know.
>: > : > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States copyright 
>law.
>: > So
>: > : > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is 
>available
>: > : > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to 
>with
>: > one
>: > : > : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure 
>rather
>: > : > : than start from scratch on your own.
>: > : > :
>: > : > :
>: > : > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
>: > : > : > Michael,
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join together and 
>form
>: > a
>: > : > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and products and
>: > produce
>: > : > the
>: > : > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
>: > : > : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
>: > : > organizations
>: > : > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the 
>blind
>: > and
>: > : > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
>: > : > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing what we
>: > need.
>: > : > Our
>: > : > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given 
>proven,
>: > : > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the 
>NFB-Publishing
>: > are
>: > : > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven
>: > materials,
>: > : > and
>: > : > : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the functionality 
>while we
>: > : > make
>: > : > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too much 
>to
>: > : > manage?
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means to a
>: > : > solution.
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > Ok... now... discuss.
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > Respectfully,
>: > : > : > Ian  C. Bray
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > ----- Original Message -----
>: > : > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>: > : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>: > : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>: > : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
>: > : > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : >
>: > : > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why, after 
>all
>: > : > : > : action would be better.
>: > : > : > :
>: > : > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly concerning is 
>that
>: > the
>: > : > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver from 
>the
>: > FCC
>: > : > to
>: > : > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the
>: > Communications
>: > : > and
>: > : > : > : Video Accessibility Act 
>(http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177).
>: > I
>: > : > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
>: > : > : > :
>: > : > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have
>: > provided
>: > : > : > : comments to the FCC.
>: > : > : > :
>: > : > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the 
>blind is
>: > : > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any individual
>: > company
>: > : > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and that for 
>a
>: > good
>: > : > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to cooperate. As 
>an
>: > : > example,
>: > : > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF 
>reader
>: > (eg.
>: > : > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require
>: > suitable
>: > : > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is run on
>: > (most
>: > : > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and then the
>: > screen
>: > : > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and then 
>this
>: > all
>: > : > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually
>: > bothers to
>: > : > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math 
>accessibility
>: > is
>: > : > not
>: > : > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of their
>: > lists of
>: > : > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to remind
>: > them
>: > : > that
>: > : > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a 
>deciding
>: > factor
>: > : > : > : in your purchasing of software.
>: > : > : > :
>: > : > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if 
>colleges
>: > and
>: > : > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses
>: > accessible
>: > : > to
>: > : > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be 
>affected
>: > and
>: > : > : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
>: > : > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
>: > : > : > :
>: > : > : > : Michael Whapples
>: > : > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
>: > : > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for a 
>lot
>: > : > cheaper
>: > : > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even 
>have it
>: > the
>: > : > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the 
>book
>: > : > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you cannot
>: > fully
>: > : > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues because a 
>big
>: > : > portion
>: > : > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no right 
>to
>: > : > expect
>: > : > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is just 
>too
>: > : > visual
>: > : > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic 
>algebra,
>: > but
>: > : > my
>: > : > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't 
>visual.
>: > : > Sighted
>: > : > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual 
>representation,
>: > but
>: > : > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've 
>known
>: > : > plenty
>: > : > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their skills 
>in
>: > : > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
>: > : > accessibility
>: > : > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or costly 
>to
>: > make
>: > : > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have 
>access
>: > to
>: > : > math
>: > : > : > electronic text.
>: > : > : > : >
>: > : > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls 
><mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
>: > : > wrote:
>: > : > : > : >
>: > : > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth back 
>to
>: > : > standard
>: > : > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from 
>the
>: > : > student,
>: > : > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read 
>it in
>: > : > symbols
>: > : > : > they understand as a sighted person?
>: > : > : > : >>
>: > : > : > : >>
>: > : > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
>: > : > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>: > : > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
>: > : > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>: > : > : > : >>>
>: > : > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated
>: > "swell"
>: > : > : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile 
>diagrams
>: > for
>: > : > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the
>: > diagrams
>: > : > to be
>: > : > : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the 
>diagrams
>: > : > (just
>: > : > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more 
>information
>: > : > about
>: > : > : > the diagram).
>: > : > : > : >>>
>: > : > : > : >
>:
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