[Blindmath] books in accessible format

[I. C. Bray]

If it were only the intellectual knowledge we were trying to protect, and 
not the all powerful dollar.

Calculus hasn't changed much in hundreds of years.

I doubt Leibnitz or Newton are still collecting royalties.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "P. McDermott-Wells" <pmw at mega-data.com>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format


: It is important not to overlook one aspect of this: the intellectual
: property aspect.  Since a great deal of work goes into the authorship as
: well as the layout and production of a textbook, a publisher wants to
: protect that investment.  By releasing the textbook in a simple digital
: format, the textbook contents can now be very easily manipulated and
: slightly modified by someone else who then publishes and sells, without
: incurring the large time and money investment to produce the original 
work.
: Copyright won't protect against this once the material is slightly 
altered.
: So from the publisher's standpoint, why make it easy for someone to create
: cheap "knock-offs" when they paid big money to an author, several editors,
: several reviewers, and developers of instructor and student resource
: materials.
:
: Suppose a publisher were to work through a single organization such as NFB
: and only release digital versions to them, and NFB then translated to
: Braille and only released Braille. Reverse translation of Braille would
: produce the digital version fairly easily.  So this is not about publisher
: laziness or lack of understanding or discrimination, it is about 
protecting
: their investment in intellectual property.
:
: In reality, as publishers move toward some form of digital versions (still
: mostly PDF), some of these issues will have to be addressed.  The textbook
: publishing industry is undergoing huge business model changes (as did the
: music production industry in the last few years), and it is still too 
early
: to predict exactly how it will all shake out.
:
: -----Original Message-----
: From: sabra1023 [mailto:sabra1023 at gmail.com]
: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:46 PM
: To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
:
: It really isn't hard for publishing companies to make their work 
accessible.
: It wouldn't just benefit blind people. These accessibility features would
: benefit about 10% of the population. People uses screen readers and
: electronic textbooks for other reasons rather than just being blind. Some
: people have dyslexia. Some people have cerebral palsy, even know they 
might
: be able to see, their eyes might not be able to focus well enough on the
: text, so they may need a screen reader as well. Some people might be able 
to
: physically see the printed text, but they need additional access because
: they are using a specialized keyboard or dictation software, which means
: that they Soli need to navigate through the book with keyboard only 
methods.
: It's true that after publisher has already made a document, the editing to
: make it accessible can be quite extensive, but if publishers think about
: accessibility at the beginning, extensive editing won't be necessary.
: Further, the Nfb is forwarding legislation called teach so that schools
: won't be able to purchase an accessible materials. Therefore, it really
: would be in the publisher's best interest to just conform. I believe the
: bill will pass because lots of other organizations are already supporting
: the Nfb. The publishers could still make a profit for their accessible 
books
: and accompanying software if applicable. In fact, the publishers are
: ensuring that they make less of a profit when they don't make their 
products
: accessible. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any blindness
: organization that exists right now that has the resources, personnel, and
: copyright permissions to start their own accessible publishing company. 
The
: most effective use of resources would be to get those people who want to
: join a publishing company and have them volunteer for book share adding 
new
: books and editing old books to increase accessibility. However, I hope 
that
: in the future, all of this extra work won't even be necessary because the
: publishers will have thought about all this ahead of time and spirit lots 
of
: people hundreds of hours of heartache.
:
: On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
:
: > John,
: > What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely
: > BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message ----- 
: > organization who's mission is to provide a facility that employs
: > blind, vision impaired, and sighted individuals to do standardization
: > of accessibil materials for any and all other companies such as Text
: > Book Publishers, Electronics Manufacturers, and any other "group" that
: > wishes to produce accessible options for it's customers.
: > Rather than have every company attempt to make their products
: > accessible, have the NFBPublishing company a "partner"  to get it done.
: >
: > The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't do
: > extreemely up to date texts.  I find the majority of the products to
: > be rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that prohibitive.
: >
: >
: >
: > Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is needed and
: > ship it to the customer.
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
: > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
: > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
: >
: >
: > : I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would
: > love
: > : to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that easy?
: > : Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit
: > : company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't know.
: > : I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
: > :
: > : I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what I read
: > on
: > : this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different
: > : directions. That seems to be the case in everything from non-profits
: > to
: > : software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but there
: > : does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem. And
: > it
: > : seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the
: > : pieces fit together.
: > :
: > :
: > : On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
: > : > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
: > : > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release
: > items,
: > : > publications, and electronics etc.
: > : > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and
: > perhaps Software
: > : > Developers...
: > : > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or
: > would be
: > : > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else
: > for
: > : > functionality.
: > : >
: > : > Example:
: > : > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
: > : > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release
: > preliminary,
: > : > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my
: > hypothetical
: > : > publishing company.
: > : > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be
: > available
: > : > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either OCR-Tag
: > PDF copies,
: > : > have them recorded in audio and get them published into braille or
: > just BRF
: > : > formats.
: > : >
: > : > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material, and
: > we have
: > : > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of what
: > is best
: > : > needed, we do it all.
: > : > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the
: > customer
: > : > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and Receipt
: > from the
: > : > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
: > : > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible
: > Version, or the
: > : > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the
: > other too.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there
: > would not be
: > : > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of
: > publishing ANY
: > : > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus
: > making it
: > : > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics &
: > Linear
: > : > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
: > : >
: > : > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise here...
: > I'm
: > : > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
: > : >
: > : > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly
: > impossible to
: > : > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
: > : >
: > : > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource
: > Centers is
: > : > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible material
: > for only a
: > : > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the
: > texts ALL
: > : > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number
: > published
: > : > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
: > : >
: > : > Ian
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > ----- Original Message -----
: > : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
: > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
: > : > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
: > : > NemethBraille)
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you
: > describe
: > : > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of what
: > : > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally
: > membership
: > : > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they used
: > to send
: > : > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they might
: > have worked
: > : > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't 
know.
: > : > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States copyright
: law.
: > So
: > : > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is
: > available
: > : > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to
: > with one
: > : > : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure
: > rather
: > : > : than start from scratch on your own.
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
: > : > : > Michael,
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join together
: > and form a
: > : > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and products
: > and produce
: > : > the
: > : > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
: > : > : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
: > : > organizations
: > : > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the
: > blind and
: > : > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
: > : > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing what
: > we need.
: > : > Our
: > : > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given
: > proven,
: > : > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the
: > NFB-Publishing are
: > : > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven
: > materials,
: > : > and
: > : > : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the functionality
: > while we
: > : > make
: > : > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too
: > much to
: > : > manage?
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means to
: > a
: > : > solution.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Ok... now... discuss.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Respectfully,
: > : > : > Ian  C. Bray
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > : > ----- Original Message -----
: > : > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
: > : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
: > : > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why,
: > after all
: > : > : > : action would be better.
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly concerning
: > is that the
: > : > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver
: > from the FCC
: > : > to
: > : > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the
: > Communications
: > : > and
: > : > : > : Video Accessibility Act
: (http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177).
: > I
: > : > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have
: > provided
: > : > : > : comments to the FCC.
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the
: > blind is
: > : > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any individual
: > company
: > : > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and that
: > for a good
: > : > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to cooperate. As
: > an
: > : > example,
: > : > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF
: > reader (eg.
: > : > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require
: > suitable
: > : > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is run
: > on (most
: > : > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and then
: > the screen
: > : > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and
: > then this all
: > : > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually
: > bothers to
: > : > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math
: > accessibility is
: > : > not
: > : > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of
: > their lists of
: > : > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to
: > remind them
: > : > that
: > : > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a
: > deciding factor
: > : > : > : in your purchasing of software.
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if
: > colleges and
: > : > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses
: > accessible
: > : > to
: > : > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be
: > affected and
: > : > : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
: > : > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : Michael Whapples
: > : > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
: > : > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for
: > a lot
: > : > cheaper
: > : > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even
: > have it the
: > : > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the
: > book
: > : > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you
: > cannot fully
: > : > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues because
: > a big
: > : > portion
: > : > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no
: > right to
: > : > expect
: > : > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is
: > just too
: > : > visual
: > : > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic
: > algebra, but
: > : > my
: > : > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't
: visual.
: > : > Sighted
: > : > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual
: > representation, but
: > : > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've
: > known
: > : > plenty
: > : > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their
: > skills in
: > : > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
: > : > accessibility
: > : > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or
: > costly to make
: > : > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have
: > access to
: > : > math
: > : > : > electronic text.
: > : > : > : >
: > : > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls
: > <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
: > : > wrote:
: > : > : > : >
: > : > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth
: > back to
: > : > standard
: > : > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from
: > the
: > : > student,
: > : > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read
: > it in
: > : > symbols
: > : > : > they understand as a sighted person?
: > : > : > : >>
: > : > : > : >>
: > : > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
: > : > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
: > : > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : > : > : >>>
: > : > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated
: > "swell"
: > : > : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile
: > diagrams for
: > : > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the
: > diagrams
: > : > to be
: > : > : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the
: > diagrams
: > : > (just
: > : > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more
: > information
: > : > about
: > : > : > the diagram).
: > : > : > : >>>
: > : > : > : >
:
:
:
:
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