[Blindmath] books in accessible format

Tue Sep 17 19:33:09 UTC 2013

There's no central resource for info on math accessibility, is there? 
If not, I could start one. I happen to be President of the International 
Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. We could provide web 
space. I think we could probably even provide a domain name like 
blindmath.org or something like that.

On 09/17/13 14:27, Tami Jarvis wrote:
> Ian,
>
> Well, I know there are people interested in maybe investing in projects
> that improve accessibility and all. There are also people who have been
> working all these years who are beginning to wonder where to put their
> free time and resources as they approach or move into retirement. I
> think that this new phenomenon of a good number of retired, highly
> skilled blind folks will be something of a game changer over time. It
> won't be as dramatic as the baby boomers or even have the impact of a
> generation of professional women on markets, but things are happening
> more and more. Should be interesting.
>
> Hm... Okay, so in my current situation, I'm afraid to call good friends
> in case they will want to do lunch. Too much commitment! When I tell
> myself I'm being silly to think something will come up just because I
> committed to doing lunch, then guess what? Sigh. Well, I'm committed to
> the family thing for the duration, so all other bets are off, I guess.
> I'm keeping up with all the great things others are doing in the wider
> world, and the discussions and ideas and progress in the hopes I can
> find a niche to contribute when I am able.
>
> So if you want to use your free time and brains to do the preliminary
> research and feasibility studies and boring ground work, I will be
> interested in following your progress to see what you find for possible
> future reference. I think it could be a good thing, a very good thing,
> supposing it is doable. The challenges and hurdles others who know more
> have mentioned are very real, of course. That doesn't mean that with
> time, resources, talent, and lots of perserverance they can't be overcome.
>
> Consolidating thoughts on the various posts in this and the recent spin
> off threads... There does seem to be an overwhelming amount of chaos in
> technical accessibility -- math, science, computers, software, etc. --
> as well as progress in various directions that sometimes seems
> frustrating because it would be so great to have just one nice, neat
> solution that every one is behind. Sometimes I get really excited just
> sitting back and watching it all. Other times, I feel exhausted with all
> the work others are doing. /lol/
>
> I've also seen greater availability of materials and tools in the short
> time I've been on the blind scene. It seems like we're catching up
> faster and faster in that regard... Then there's another hurdle in the
> form of a brick wall that someone needs to batter down. I've started to
> understand why those who have been at this for years and even decades
> sometimes sound to a newbie a bit world-weary and cynical even though
> they keep at it. They know the possibilities but they also know how much
> it takes to turn them into some sort of reality.
>
> Hm... ViewPlus is a really good example and case study, I think, of what
> is possible when someone who sees a need and decides to fill the gap is
> able to pull together the resources and talent to make it work. There
> are a few others out there I hear referenced, as well, that have filled
> various gaps. I'm more fascinated by the math and science stuff, I guess.
>
> I agree that there are a number of existing projects now that one can
> get behind to contribute, too, by donating time or money. They're all
> important and all have their pros and cons. Nice to have that wealth of
> choice, actually. I also agree that new projects based on new ideas are
> great for those who can get them going. The notion of more competition
> for scarce resources is scary in a way, but isn't that how progress
> happens? Some projects will sound promising and fail badly, of course.
> Others will poop along. Some will do fantastically and create dramatic
> change for a lot of people as some have already and continue to do.
>
> I think the growing number of blind people in technical specialities
> will over time erode those dratted low expectations and negative
> attitudes, as well. It used to be a True Fact that women were incapable
> of learning math, after all. Now nobody understands who anybody could
> ever think that because it is so obviously not the case. It will take
> longer for the smaller minority of blind people, but the more who take
> on the challenges to compete and succeed, the more preponderance of
> evidence we will have on our side. Still, those bad attitudes made me
> feel jaded and world-weary the first time I heard them, and my attitude
> doesn't get any better hearing them again. Hmph!
>
> Tami
>
> On 09/16/2013 11:20 PM, I. C. Bray wrote:
>> Finally
>> A reasonable and astute reasoning!
>> OK, the fact is that just because no one can or does currently,
>> does not preclude the fact that we can or could in the future!
>> I am just glad there are smarter people than I out there that know.
>>
>> Anyone want to start a Publishing Company?  I'm not very busy theese
>> days!?
>> LOL!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
>>
>>
>> : It really isn't hard for publishing companies to make their work
>> accessible. It wouldn't just benefit blind people. These accessibility
>> features would benefit about 10% of the population. People uses screen
>> readers and electronic textbooks for other reasons rather than just being
>> blind. Some people have dyslexia. Some people have cerebral palsy,
>> even know
>> they might be able to see, their eyes might not be able to focus well
>> enough
>> on the text, so they may need a screen reader as well. Some people
>> might be
>> able to physically see the printed text, but they need additional access
>> because they are using a specialized keyboard or dictation software,
>> which
>> means that they Soli need to navigate through the book with keyboard only
>> methods. It's true that after publisher has already made a document, the
>> editing to make it accessible can be quite extensive, but if publishers
>> think about accessibility at the beginning, extensive editing won't be
>> necessary. Further, the Nfb is forwardin!
>> : g legislation called teach so that schools won't be able to purchase an
>> accessible materials. Therefore, it really would be in the publisher's
>> best
>> interest to just conform. I believe the bill will pass because lots of
>> other
>> organizations are already supporting the Nfb. The publishers could still
>> make a profit for their accessible books and accompanying software if
>> applicable. In fact, the publishers are ensuring that they make less of a
>> profit when they don't make their products accessible. Maybe I'm
>> wrong, but
>> I don't think there is any blindness organization that exists right
>> now that
>> has the resources, personnel, and copyright permissions to start their
>> own
>> accessible publishing company. The most effective use of resources
>> would be
>> to get those people who want to join a publishing company and have them
>> volunteer for book share adding new books and editing old books to
>> increase
>> accessibility. However, I hope that in the future, all of this extra work
>> won't even be necess!
>> : ary because the publishers will have thought about all this ahead of
>> time
>> and spirit lots of people hundreds of hours of heartache.
>> :
>> : On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
>> :
>> : > John,
>> : > What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely
>> : > BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message -----
>> organization
>> : > who's mission is to provide a facility that employs blind, vision
>> impaired,
>> : > and sighted individuals to do standardization of accessibil materials
>> for
>> : > any and all other companies such as Text Book Publishers, Electronics
>> : > Manufacturers, and any other "group" that wishes to produce
>> accessible
>> : > options for it's customers.
>> : > Rather than have every company attempt to make their products
>> accessible,
>> : > have the NFBPublishing company a "partner"  to get it done.
>> : >
>> : > The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't do
>> : > extreemely up to date texts.  I find the majority of the products
>> to be
>> : > rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that prohibitive.
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is needed and
>> ship
>> : > it to the customer.
>> : >
>> : > Ian
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
>> : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > : I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would
>> love
>> : > : to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that easy?
>> : > : Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit
>> : > : company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't
>> know.
>> : > : I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
>> : > :
>> : > : I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what I
>> read
>> on
>> : > : this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different
>> : > : directions. That seems to be the case in everything from
>> non-profits
>> to
>> : > : software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but
>> there
>> : > : does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem.
>> And
>> it
>> : > : seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the
>> : > : pieces fit together.
>> : > :
>> : > :
>> : > : On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
>> : > : > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
>> : > : > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release
>> items,
>> : > : > publications, and electronics etc.
>> : > : > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and
>> perhaps
>> : > Software
>> : > : > Developers...
>> : > : > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or
>> would
>> be
>> : > : > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else
>> for
>> : > : > functionality.
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Example:
>> : > : > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
>> : > : > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release
>> : > preliminary,
>> : > : > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my
>> hypothetical
>> : > : > publishing company.
>> : > : > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be
>> : > available
>> : > : > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either
>> OCR-Tag PDF
>> : > copies,
>> : > : > have them recorded in audio and get them published into
>> braille or
>> just
>> : > BRF
>> : > : > formats.
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material,
>> and we
>> : > have
>> : > : > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of
>> what is
>> best
>> : > : > needed, we do it all.
>> : > : > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the
>> customer
>> : > : > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and
>> Receipt from
>> the
>> : > : > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
>> : > : > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible
>> Version,
>> or
>> : > the
>> : > : > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the
>> other
>> : > too.
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there
>> would
>> not
>> : > be
>> : > : > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of
>> publishing
>> : > ANY
>> : > : > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus
>> making
>> it
>> : > : > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics &
>> Linear
>> : > : > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise
>> here...
>> I'm
>> : > : > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
>> : > : >
>> : > : > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly
>> impossible
>> : > to
>> : > : > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource
>> Centers
>> : > is
>> : > : > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible
>> material for
>> only
>> : > a
>> : > : > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the
>> texts
>> : > ALL
>> : > : > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number
>> published
>> : > : > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Ian
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : > ----- Original Message -----
>> : > : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
>> : > : > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
>> : > : > NemethBraille)
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you
>> : > describe
>> : > : > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of
>> what
>> : > : > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally
>> : > membership
>> : > : > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they
>> used to
>> : > send
>> : > : > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they might
>> have
>> : > worked
>> : > : > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't
>> know.
>> : > : > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States
>> copyright
>> law.
>> : > So
>> : > : > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is
>> available
>> : > : > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to
>> with
>> : > one
>> : > : > : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure
>> rather
>> : > : > : than start from scratch on your own.
>> : > : > :
>> : > : > :
>> : > : > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
>> : > : > : > Michael,
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join
>> together and
>> form
>> : > a
>> : > : > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and
>> products and
>> : > produce
>> : > : > the
>> : > : > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
>> : > : > : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
>> : > : > organizations
>> : > : > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the
>> blind
>> : > and
>> : > : > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
>> : > : > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing
>> what we
>> : > need.
>> : > : > Our
>> : > : > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given
>> proven,
>> : > : > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the
>> NFB-Publishing
>> : > are
>> : > : > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven
>> : > materials,
>> : > : > and
>> : > : > : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the functionality
>> while we
>> : > : > make
>> : > : > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too
>> much
>> to
>> : > : > manage?
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means
>> to a
>> : > : > solution.
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > Ok... now... discuss.
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > Respectfully,
>> : > : > : > Ian  C. Bray
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > ----- Original Message -----
>> : > : > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>> : > : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> : > : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> : > : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
>> : > : > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why,
>> after
>> all
>> : > : > : > : action would be better.
>> : > : > : > :
>> : > : > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly
>> concerning is
>> that
>> : > the
>> : > : > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver
>> from
>> the
>> : > FCC
>> : > : > to
>> : > : > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the
>> : > Communications
>> : > : > and
>> : > : > : > : Video Accessibility Act
>> (http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177).
>> : > I
>> : > : > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
>> : > : > : > :
>> : > : > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have
>> : > provided
>> : > : > : > : comments to the FCC.
>> : > : > : > :
>> : > : > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the
>> blind is
>> : > : > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any
>> individual
>> : > company
>> : > : > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and
>> that for
>> a
>> : > good
>> : > : > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to
>> cooperate. As
>> an
>> : > : > example,
>> : > : > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF
>> reader
>> : > (eg.
>> : > : > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require
>> : > suitable
>> : > : > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is
>> run on
>> : > (most
>> : > : > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and
>> then the
>> : > screen
>> : > : > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and
>> then
>> this
>> : > all
>> : > : > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually
>> : > bothers to
>> : > : > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math
>> accessibility
>> : > is
>> : > : > not
>> : > : > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of
>> their
>> : > lists of
>> : > : > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to
>> remind
>> : > them
>> : > : > that
>> : > : > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a
>> deciding
>> : > factor
>> : > : > : > : in your purchasing of software.
>> : > : > : > :
>> : > : > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if
>> colleges
>> : > and
>> : > : > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses
>> : > accessible
>> : > : > to
>> : > : > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be
>> affected
>> : > and
>> : > : > : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
>> : > : > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
>> : > : > : > :
>> : > : > : > : Michael Whapples
>> : > : > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
>> : > : > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format
>> for a
>> lot
>> : > : > cheaper
>> : > : > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even
>> have it
>> : > the
>> : > : > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get
>> the
>> book
>> : > : > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you
>> cannot
>> : > fully
>> : > : > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues
>> because a
>> big
>> : > : > portion
>> : > : > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no
>> right
>> to
>> : > : > expect
>> : > : > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is
>> just
>> too
>> : > : > visual
>> : > : > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic
>> algebra,
>> : > but
>> : > : > my
>> : > : > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't
>> visual.
>> : > : > Sighted
>> : > : > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual
>> representation,
>> : > but
>> : > : > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've
>> known
>> : > : > plenty
>> : > : > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their
>> skills
>> in
>> : > : > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
>> : > : > accessibility
>> : > : > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or
>> costly
>> to
>> : > make
>> : > : > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have
>> access
>> : > to
>> : > : > math
>> : > : > : > electronic text.
>> : > : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls
>> <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
>> : > : > wrote:
>> : > : > : > : >
>> : > : > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth
>> back
>> to
>> : > : > standard
>> : > : > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from
>> the
>> : > : > student,
>> : > : > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and
>> read
>> it in
>> : > : > symbols
>> : > : > : > they understand as a sighted person?
>> : > : > : > : >>
>> : > : > : > : >>
>> : > : > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
>> : > : > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> : > : > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
>> : > : > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>> : > : > : > : >>>
>> : > : > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using
>> encapsulated
>> : > "swell"
>> : > : > : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile
>> diagrams
>> : > for
>> : > : > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the
>> : > diagrams
>> : > : > to be
>> : > : > : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the
>> diagrams
>> : > : > (just
>> : > : > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more
>> information
>> : > : > about
>> : > : > : > the diagram).
>> : > : > : > : >>>
>> : > : > : > : >
>> :
>> : _______________________________________________
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>
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-- 
---
John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu