[Blindmath] books in accessible format

Wed Sep 18 18:23:31 UTC 2013

Hi Steve,

Although I know about a lot of new math projects (and am actually involved
in several), I'm afraid that I have gotten behind in putting them up on my
math website (www.tsbvi.edu/math) I need to find a spare moment to post
some things there. Perhaps my webmaster, Jim Allan, can help us out.

Susan

Susan A Osterhaus
Statewide Mathematics Consultant
Outreach Programs
Texas School for the Blind
  And Visually Impaired
1100 West 45th Street
Austin, TX 78756
Email: susanosterhaus at tsbvi.edu
Phone: 512-206-9305
Website: www.tsbvi.edu/math
Distance Ed: http://distance.tsbvi.edu/osterhaus_math_intro.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 1:10 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format

John and others,

It is worth taking the time to be sure we know what might already be
available and what might be in the works.  One site that has quite a lot
on it is the Texas School for the Blind math website.  It is at

http://www.tsbvi.edu/math

and while it centers on education, it has links to some projects as well.
I'll do some digging.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:33:09 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

>There's no central resource for info on math accessibility, is there?
>If not, I could start one. I happen to be President of the
>International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. We could
>provide web space. I think we could probably even provide a domain name
>like blindmath.org or something like that.

>On 09/17/13 14:27, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>> Ian,
>>
>> Well, I know there are people interested in maybe investing in
>> projects that improve accessibility and all. There are also people
>> who have been working all these years who are beginning to wonder
>> where to put their free time and resources as they approach or move
>> into retirement. I think that this new phenomenon of a good number of
>> retired, highly skilled blind folks will be something of a game
>> changer over time. It won't be as dramatic as the baby boomers or
>> even have the impact of a generation of professional women on
>> markets, but things are happening more and more. Should be interesting.
>>
>> Hm... Okay, so in my current situation, I'm afraid to call good
>> friends in case they will want to do lunch. Too much commitment! When
>> I tell myself I'm being silly to think something will come up just
>> because I committed to doing lunch, then guess what? Sigh. Well, I'm
>> committed to the family thing for the duration, so all other bets are
off, I guess.
>> I'm keeping up with all the great things others are doing in the
>> wider world, and the discussions and ideas and progress in the hopes
>> I can find a niche to contribute when I am able.
>>
>> So if you want to use your free time and brains to do the preliminary
>> research and feasibility studies and boring ground work, I will be
>> interested in following your progress to see what you find for
>> possible future reference. I think it could be a good thing, a very
>> good thing, supposing it is doable. The challenges and hurdles others
>> who know more have mentioned are very real, of course. That doesn't
>> mean that with time, resources, talent, and lots of perserverance they
can't be overcome.
>>
>> Consolidating thoughts on the various posts in this and the recent
>> spin off threads... There does seem to be an overwhelming amount of
>> chaos in technical accessibility -- math, science, computers,
>> software, etc. -- as well as progress in various directions that
>> sometimes seems frustrating because it would be so great to have just
>> one nice, neat solution that every one is behind. Sometimes I get
>> really excited just sitting back and watching it all. Other times, I
>> feel exhausted with all the work others are doing. /lol/
>>
>> I've also seen greater availability of materials and tools in the
>> short time I've been on the blind scene. It seems like we're catching
>> up faster and faster in that regard... Then there's another hurdle in
>> the form of a brick wall that someone needs to batter down. I've
>> started to understand why those who have been at this for years and
>> even decades sometimes sound to a newbie a bit world-weary and
>> cynical even though they keep at it. They know the possibilities but
>> they also know how much it takes to turn them into some sort of
reality.
>>
>> Hm... ViewPlus is a really good example and case study, I think, of
>> what is possible when someone who sees a need and decides to fill the
>> gap is able to pull together the resources and talent to make it
>> work. There are a few others out there I hear referenced, as well,
>> that have filled various gaps. I'm more fascinated by the math and
science stuff, I guess.
>>
>> I agree that there are a number of existing projects now that one can
>> get behind to contribute, too, by donating time or money. They're all
>> important and all have their pros and cons. Nice to have that wealth
>> of choice, actually. I also agree that new projects based on new
>> ideas are great for those who can get them going. The notion of more
>> competition for scarce resources is scary in a way, but isn't that
>> how progress happens? Some projects will sound promising and fail
badly, of course.
>> Others will poop along. Some will do fantastically and create
>> dramatic change for a lot of people as some have already and continue
to do.
>>
>> I think the growing number of blind people in technical specialities
>> will over time erode those dratted low expectations and negative
>> attitudes, as well. It used to be a True Fact that women were
>> incapable of learning math, after all. Now nobody understands who
>> anybody could ever think that because it is so obviously not the
>> case. It will take longer for the smaller minority of blind people,
>> but the more who take on the challenges to compete and succeed, the
>> more preponderance of evidence we will have on our side. Still, those
>> bad attitudes made me feel jaded and world-weary the first time I
>> heard them, and my attitude doesn't get any better hearing them again.
Hmph!
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 09/16/2013 11:20 PM, I. C. Bray wrote:
>>> Finally
>>> A reasonable and astute reasoning!
>>> OK, the fact is that just because no one can or does currently, does
>>> not preclude the fact that we can or could in the future!
>>> I am just glad there are smarter people than I out there that know.
>>>
>>> Anyone want to start a Publishing Company?  I'm not very busy theese
>>> days!?
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
>>>
>>>
>>> : It really isn't hard for publishing companies to make their work
>>> accessible. It wouldn't just benefit blind people. These
>>> accessibility features would benefit about 10% of the population.
>>> People uses screen readers and electronic textbooks for other
>>> reasons rather than just being blind. Some people have dyslexia.
>>> Some people have cerebral palsy, even know they might be able to
>>> see, their eyes might not be able to focus well enough on the text,
>>> so they may need a screen reader as well. Some people might be able
>>> to physically see the printed text, but they need additional access
>>> because they are using a specialized keyboard or dictation software,
>>> which means that they Soli need to navigate through the book with
>>> keyboard only methods. It's true that after publisher has already
>>> made a document, the editing to make it accessible can be quite
>>> extensive, but if publishers think about accessibility at the
>>> beginning, extensive editing won't be necessary. Further, the Nfb is
>>> forwardin!
>>> : g legislation called teach so that schools won't be able to
>>> purchase an accessible materials. Therefore, it really would be in
>>> the publisher's best interest to just conform. I believe the bill
>>> will pass because lots of other organizations are already supporting
>>> the Nfb. The publishers could still make a profit for their
>>> accessible books and accompanying software if applicable. In fact,
>>> the publishers are ensuring that they make less of a profit when
>>> they don't make their products accessible. Maybe I'm wrong, but I
>>> don't think there is any blindness organization that exists right
>>> now that has the resources, personnel, and copyright permissions to
>>> start their own accessible publishing company. The most effective
>>> use of resources would be to get those people who want to join a
>>> publishing company and have them volunteer for book share adding new
>>> books and editing old books to increase accessibility. However, I
>>> hope that in the future, all of this extra work won't even be
>>> necess!
>>> : ary because the publishers will have thought about all this ahead
>>> of time and spirit lots of people hundreds of hours of heartache.
>>> :
>>> : On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : > John,
>>> : > What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely
>>> : > BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message -----
>>> organization
>>> : > who's mission is to provide a facility that employs blind,
>>> vision impaired,
>>> : > and sighted individuals to do standardization of accessibil
>>> materials for
>>> : > any and all other companies such as Text Book Publishers,
>>> Electronics
>>> : > Manufacturers, and any other "group" that wishes to produce
>>> accessible
>>> : > options for it's customers.
>>> : > Rather than have every company attempt to make their products
>>> accessible,
>>> : > have the NFBPublishing company a "partner"  to get it done.
>>> : >
>>> : > The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't
>>> do
>>> : > extreemely up to date texts.  I find the majority of the
>>> products to be
>>> : > rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that
prohibitive.
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is
>>> needed and ship
>>> : > it to the customer.
>>> : >
>>> : > Ian
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
>>> : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > : I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally
>>> would love
>>> : > : to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that
easy?
>>> : > : Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a
>>> for-profit
>>> : > : company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I
>>> don't know.
>>> : > : I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
>>> : > :
>>> : > : I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what
>>> I read on
>>> : > : this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in
>>> different
>>> : > : directions. That seems to be the case in everything from
>>> non-profits to
>>> : > : software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but
>>> there
>>> : > : does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem.
>>> And
>>> it
>>> : > : seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how
>>> all the
>>> : > : pieces fit together.
>>> : > :
>>> : > :
>>> : > : On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
>>> : > : > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
>>> : > : > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to
>>> release items,
>>> : > : > publications, and electronics etc.
>>> : > : > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and
>>> perhaps
>>> : > Software
>>> : > : > Developers...
>>> : > : > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs
>>> or would be
>>> : > : > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever
>>> else for
>>> : > : > functionality.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Example:
>>> : > : > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
>>> : > : > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they
>>> release
>>> : > preliminary,
>>> : > : > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my
>>> hypothetical
>>> : > : > publishing company.
>>> : > : > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should
>>> be
>>> : > available
>>> : > : > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either
>>> OCR-Tag PDF
>>> : > copies,
>>> : > : > have them recorded in audio and get them published into
>>> braille or just
>>> : > BRF
>>> : > : > formats.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the
>>> material, and we
>>> : > have
>>> : > : > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of
>>> what is best
>>> : > : > needed, we do it all.
>>> : > : > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then
>>> the customer
>>> : > : > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and
>>> Receipt from the
>>> : > : > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then
>>> the
>>> : > : > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible
>>> Version, or
>>> : > the
>>> : > : > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and
>>> receives the other
>>> : > too.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and
>>> there would not
>>> : > be
>>> : > : > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of
>>> publishing
>>> : > ANY
>>> : > : > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus
>>> making it
>>> : > : > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our
>>> Physics & Linear
>>> : > : > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000
per...
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise
>>> here...
>>> I'm
>>> : > : > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly
>>> impossible
>>> : > to
>>> : > : > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability
>>> Resource Centers
>>> : > is
>>> : > : > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible
>>> material for only
>>> : > a
>>> : > : > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and
>>> the texts
>>> : > ALL
>>> : > : > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small
>>> number published
>>> : > : > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Ian
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > ----- Original Message -----
>>> : > : > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
>>> : > : > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing
>>> in
>>> : > : > NemethBraille)
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company
>>> you
>>> : > describe
>>> : > : > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some
>>> of what
>>> : > : > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning
>>> Ally
>>> : > membership
>>> : > : > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they
>>> used to
>>> : > send
>>> : > : > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they
>>> might have
>>> : > worked
>>> : > : > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I
>>> wouldn't know.
>>> : > : > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States
>>> copyright law.
>>> : > So
>>> : > : > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is
>>> available
>>> : > : > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot
>>> easier to with
>>> : > one
>>> : > : > : of these organizations to tweak their existing
>>> infrastructure rather
>>> : > : > : than start from scratch on your own.
>>> : > : > :
>>> : > : > :
>>> : > : > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
>>> : > : > : > Michael,
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join
>>> together and form
>>> : > a
>>> : > : > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and
>>> products and
>>> : > produce
>>> : > : > the
>>> : > : > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
>>> : > : > : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or
>>> contract
>>> : > : > organizations
>>> : > : > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically
>>> for the blind
>>> : > and
>>> : > : > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
>>> : > : > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing
>>> what we
>>> : > need.
>>> : > : > Our
>>> : > : > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are
>>> given proven,
>>> : > : > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the
>>> NFB-Publishing
>>> : > are
>>> : > : > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working /
>>> proven
>>> : > materials,
>>> : > : > and
>>> : > : > : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the
>>> functionality while we
>>> : > : > make
>>> : > : > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really
>>> too much to
>>> : > : > manage?
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active
>>> means to a
>>> : > : > solution.
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > Ok... now... discuss.
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > Respectfully,
>>> : > : > : > Ian  C. Bray
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > ----- Original Message -----
>>> : > : > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>> : > : > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>>> : > : > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> : > : > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
>>> : > : > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about
>>> why, after all
>>> : > : > : > : action would be better.
>>> : > : > : > :
>>> : > : > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly
>>> concerning is that
>>> : > the
>>> : > : > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a
>>> waiver from the
>>> : > FCC
>>> : > : > to
>>> : > : > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the
>>> : > Communications
>>> : > : > and
>>> : > : > : > : Video Accessibility Act
>>> (http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177).
>>> : > I
>>> : > : > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
>>> : > : > : > :
>>> : > : > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB,
>>> have
>>> : > provided
>>> : > : > : > : comments to the FCC.
>>> : > : > : > :
>>> : > : > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for
>>> the blind is
>>> : > : > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any
>>> individual
>>> : > company
>>> : > : > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and
>>> that for a
>>> : > good
>>> : > : > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to
>>> cooperate. As an
>>> : > : > example,
>>> : > : > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the
>>> PDF reader
>>> : > (eg.
>>> : > : > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will
>>> require
>>> : > suitable
>>> : > : > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is
>>> run on
>>> : > (most
>>> : > : > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and
>>> then the
>>> : > screen
>>> : > : > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility,
>>> and then this
>>> : > all
>>> : > : > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document
>>> actually
>>> : > bothers to
>>> : > : > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math
>>> accessibility
>>> : > is
>>> : > : > not
>>> : > : > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top
>>> of their
>>> : > lists of
>>> : > : > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility
>>> to remind
>>> : > them
>>> : > : > that
>>> : > : > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a
>>> deciding
>>> : > factor
>>> : > : > : > : in your purchasing of software.
>>> : > : > : > :
>>> : > : > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but
>>> if colleges
>>> : > and
>>> : > : > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their
>>> courses
>>> : > accessible
>>> : > : > to
>>> : > : > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may
>>> be affected
>>> : > and
>>> : > : > : > : then that might be something significant to some of
>>> these
>>> : > : > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
>>> : > : > : > :
>>> : > : > : > : Michael Whapples
>>> : > : > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
>>> : > : > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital
>>> format for a lot
>>> : > : > cheaper
>>> : > : > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers
>>> even have it
>>> : > the
>>> : > : > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to
>>> get the book
>>> : > : > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you
>>> cannot
>>> : > fully
>>> : > : > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues
>>> because a big
>>> : > : > portion
>>> : > : > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have
>>> no right to
>>> : > : > expect
>>> : > : > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math
>>> is just too
>>> : > : > visual
>>> : > : > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn
>>> basic algebra,
>>> : > but
>>> : > : > my
>>> : > : > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself
>>> isn't visual.
>>> : > : > Sighted
>>> : > : > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual
>>> representation,
>>> : > but
>>> : > : > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also,
>>> I've known
>>> : > : > plenty
>>> : > : > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their
>>> skills in
>>> : > : > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought
>>> about
>>> : > : > accessibility
>>> : > : > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult
>>> or costly to
>>> : > make
>>> : > : > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can
>>> have access
>>> : > to
>>> : > : > math
>>> : > : > : > electronic text.
>>> : > : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls
>>> <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
>>> : > : > wrote:
>>> : > : > : > : >
>>> : > : > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from
>>> Nemeth back to
>>> : > : > standard
>>> : > : > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework
>>> from the
>>> : > : > student,
>>> : > : > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application,
>>> and read it in
>>> : > : > symbols
>>> : > : > : > they understand as a sighted person?
>>> : > : > : > : >>
>>> : > : > : > : >>
>>> : > : > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
>>> : > : > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> : > : > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
>>> : > : > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
>>> : > : > : > : >>>
>>> : > : > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using
>>> encapsulated
>>> : > "swell"
>>> : > : > : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile
>>> diagrams
>>> : > for
>>> : > : > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have
>>> found the
>>> : > diagrams
>>> : > : > to be
>>> : > : > : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on
>>> the diagrams
>>> : > : > (just
>>> : > : > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more
>>> information
>>> : > : > about
>>> : > : > : > the diagram).
>>> : > : > : > : >>>
>>> : > : > : > : >
>>> :
>>> : _______________________________________________
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>>
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>--
>---
>John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu

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