[Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth

Mon Mar 23 01:27:00 UTC 2015

I don't know, Ken, if that will be necessary.  I would think that, as it
always was, there will just be a natural progression as you go up through
the grades, just as there is with a sighted kid, that you would learn the
way to write more and more complicated mathematical expressions, scientific
formulas, etc.  Transcribers will need to know the ins and outs and be
really clear on rules and formats, but kids will just learn it as a natural
progression.

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:22 PM, Ken Perry via Blindmath <
blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

>
> I have not been blind from birth but have been blind over 20 years.  I find
> UEB for non-technical material much better than the old braille.  Mostly
> because there are less contractions to worry about and those that exist do
> not conflict depending on context.  You asked how this moves us forward.
> If
> you do anything in a technical field with refreshable braille you can
> quickly see the difference just by writing an email address and that is
> just
> a minor difference there are others that make forward and back translation
> easier and that is a must when doing braille with computers.  Now UEB is
> not
> perfect. In my personal opinion NUBS would have been better.  I doubt they
> are going to re-fight that battle though.  My biggest worry with the
> current
> state of affairs is that nemeth will slowly be removed all together because
> they will be teaching low grades with UEB and thus the kids will not want
> to
> learn a new braille when they get to higher maths. Even if it means less
> braille cells per formula.  I feel like the way it is designed now it will
> only lead to a slow death of nemeth and that is very sad.
>
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge
> A.
> Paez via Blindmath
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:34 PM
> To: Steve Jacobson; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>
> First: I will say that the stress level and challenge of learning braille
> will be more than it used to be, partly because I think any press that will
> change to UEB will do so before the TVIs get a chance to learn it, and
> partly because it looks a lot more challenging then the original braille
> does.
> More generally, what do changes to print have to do with us?
> You also speak of less relevance?
> I don't see Braille, even in its current form becoming less relevant.
> True, there are more people using audio and such, I have met several people
> who do not know braille at all but that is not because of anything to do
> with relevance as much as it is to do with lack of opportunity.
> Lastly, you speak of moving forward. With all due respect, I don't
> understand what updating Braille, if you can even call it an update of
> sorts, has to do with moving forward?
> Oh, and I'm sure a lot of people will be happy to learn a code that is a
> lot
> more complicated then the code that was being taught a couple of years ago,
> sure, why not complicate things just a little more?
> And while I'm on that, I can't speak for all but I know a handful of us who
> grew up with the traditional system won't care much for learning the new
> UEB
> code, and I'm pretty sure I'm right when I say transcribers who are well
> established, both self-employed and the larger transcription companies
> won't
> particularly care to learn UEB much either.
>
> Jorge
>
>
> On 3/22/15, Steve Jacobson via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > Heidi and others,
> >
> > First, I really do not think that you will find that your daughter's
> > education or stress level will be significantly raised by this change.
> > I say that having been required in the 1950's and 1960's to switch
> > from the Taylor Code for math, to the first version of Nemeth Code and
> > then a second version of Nemeth and
> >
> > there were profound differences with each change.  I experienced some
> > substantial changes to Grade Two braille as well, and there were a lot
> > of texts that were written in what was called grade one-and-a-half
> > then.  Would my life have been easier if that were not the case,
> > probably, but we didn't think a lot about it.
> >
> > More generally, your friend who said change was not inevitable may
> > have been referring specifically to changing to UEB, I don't know, but
> > I believe changes to the braille code in general are inevitable.
> > Either braill had to change or it was destined to become less
> > relevant.  I believe this is the case Partly because print has changed
> > dramatically during the past three or four decades.  Also, we, as
> > blind people, are more affected by print presentation now than was the
> > case before computers, optical character recognition, and electronic
> > texts.
> >
> > It has been more than twenty years now since serious discussions began
> > as to how to make it possible for braille to better reflect changing
> > print conventions and to make better use of our ability to get text
> > electronically.  The debate has often been very emotional, and at
> > times, there was considerable polarization.
> > This means that even today, emotions run high regarding what should be
> > done with braille.  Those of you who have read "War of the Dots" know
> > this is nothing new.  I think it is safe to say that people tend to
> > get emotional when discussing something that means a great deal to
> > them.  What makes the issue even more complicated is that there is no
> > perfect solution, including doing nothing at all.
> >
> > Over time, Unified English Braille has emerged as the code that most
> > of us have gotten behind as a path forward, but certainly not all of
> > us.  In particular, some of UEB's detractors were very upset with the
> > UEB's code of mathematics.  Ueb developers did a credible job of
> > making it possible for math symbols and numbers to be written
> > consistently whether in text or within mathematics, but there seemed
> > to be a cost.  It was demonstrated by some that many mathematical
> > expressions could take as many as twice as many symbols to write, and
> > this raised concerns for many of us.  In addition, mathematical texts
> > are still particularly dependent upon humans to accurately transcribe
> > them, and changing to UEB for math would have required major
> > retraining, much more than in the case of literary braille.  For that
> > reason, a reasonable compromise seemed to be to stick with our current
> > Nemeth Code for math rather than changing both literary and
> > mathematical braille.
> >
> > If one reads the War of the Dots one learns that in the early part of
> > the twentieth century, different schools for the blind in the united
> > states taught different versions of braille.  New York Point was
> > nothing like the braille we read today, even having a differently
> > shaped cell, but it had a good deal of support a hundred years ago.
> > In addition, there were multiple versions of 6-dot braille that used
> > different sets of contractions.  It took some time for a single system
> > to evolve and to gain widespread use.  This experience makes it
> > obvious to me that we need a group to set standards, even if voluntary.
> >
> > This is pretty much what BANA is.  They don't have, to my knowledge,
> > any legal power as your friend said, but are made up of
> > representatives of many
> >
> > diverse groups.  Your friend is right, people could ignore BANA, but
> > where does that leave us?  Is this approach so bad that it is worth
> > fragmenting braille when it is already under such pressure from other
> > forces?  The current approach isn't perfect, but neither is any other
> > system that has been examined.
> > However, it does seem to me that the current approach of using UEB and
> > Nemeth Code for math gives us the best approach to open up braille to
> > accommodate changes in the future with the least disruption to braille
> > readers, teachers and transcribers.  Work needs to be completed as to
> > how to
> >
> > integrate Nemeth Code with UEB but a lot has already been accomplished.
> > There is now a symbol that indicates that Nemeth Code is starting, for
> > example, that was not part of UEB even a few years ago.  The challenge
> > of how to handle short mathematical passages has not been completely
> > resolve yet but there is awareness of difficulties that can arise if
> > there are a lot of indicators switching in and out of Nemeth code.
> > Interestingly, the math books I used some years ago used the literary
> > braille numbers for page numbers and within the table of contents, and
> > even to number word problems.  Some of these conventions changed over
> > time, I understand that, but math books simply have not necessarily
> > been all Nemeth Code as was suggested.  Science texts that are less
> > mathematical have had to bounce between literary braille and Nemeth
> > Code all along and some of this will remain and it isn't really new.
> >
> >
> > Perhaps it is too strong a statement to say that the changes are a
> > "done deal."  However, there does come a time when we need to move
> > forward and think about the path that is ahead of us, how to make it
> > better, how to make the transition as smooth as possible, and how to
> > increase our rate of literacy.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Steve Jacobson
> >
> > On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 18:51:39 -0400, HPS via Blindmath wrote:
> >
> >>Yes to all Susan states, I'm a parent and my daughter is in 9th grade.
> >>I  don't know how this will affect her right at a critical point in
> >>high  school, and I'm not
> > looking forward to dealing with all the extra stress this will bring.
> > These are not simple changes as some have mentioned.
> >
> >
> >>I like to know what to expect, and what to prepare her for. This is
> >>not  just the job of her VI Teacher, who is still not sure what all
> >>the changes  are either.
> >
> >
> >>So, it seems that a lot was done and I had no idea about it til about
> >>1  year ago. Seems that if you don't belong to some organization you are
> out.
> >> There
> > was not a lot of talk about this in any list, that seems weird to me.
> >
> >
> >>I also since discovering this list have been interested in what all of
> >>your  points of view are, specifically how these changes will impact
> >>any math  and
> > science students and professionals.
> >
> >
> >>As with any change there are good things and bad things that come with
> it.
> >> In this case I do not care for the bad that this will bring, and
> >>these are  my
> > daughters feelings, she is not happy with any of the changes with Nemeth.
> >
> >
> >>I apologize for any grammar mistakes as English is not my first language.
> >
> >
> >>Thank you,
> >
> >
> >>Heidi
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Susan Jolly via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>To: blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 6:31 pm
> >>Subject: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
> >
> >
> >>I can't speak for others but here's why I'm still discussing it.
> >
> >>1. A done
> >>deal doesn't always stay done.  I thought UEB was done with in the US
> >>back when NFB passed Resolutions 2002-04 and 2002-05.
> >>2. I assume BANA is taking
> >>into consideration how the transition was and is going to be
> >>implemented in other countries, especially in Australia and New
> >>Zealand where the implementations are pretty much complete.  These two
> >>countries took a phased approach so that older students weren't
> >>confronted with a code change at critical points in their educational
> >>careers.
> >>Hopefully the more that parents,
> >>teachers, and braille learners themselves understand about the
> >>details, the better the individual decisions they can make as to
> >>timing.
> >>3. To my
> >>knowledge no country other than the US has combined Nemeth math with
> >>UEB text so my guess is that the exact rules for how this is going to
> >>be implemented are still evolving and this is where the expertise of
> >>the Blindmath community will be helpful.  For example, the person who
> >>started this thread pointed out that there are questions about how
> >>best to integrate the use of Nemeth for displayed math with associated
> >>inline math references to that displayed math.
> >
> >>Sincerely,
> >>Susan Jolly
> >
> >
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
> --
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> Jorge A. Paez
>
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jorgeapaez
>
> Elance page: http://jorgeapaez1994.elance.com
>
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