[Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth

Mon Mar 23 21:14:19 UTC 2015

UEB has good logical pattern. In the Philippines, we will be using UEB
for literary Braille and Nemeth for Math Materials.

On 3/23/15, George Bell via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> And thanks from me too, Steve.
>
> The UK is ahead of the States in implementing UEB, and speaking from a
> Duxbury support point of view, in that role we have been very close to the
> concerns of both teachers and users.
>
> As far as the literary side of UEB is concerned, there have been and still
> are, many urban myths.  No, spelling is not affected.  No, it does not
> significantly increase volume.  No, UEB does not affect formatting. No, you
> are not being forced to use UEB for mathematics. And on they go.
>
> UEB does remove many potential ambiguities and differences between English
> braille variants, and as has been pointed out, even relaxes some rules.
> Back translation is far more reliable, especially when using software to do
> this.
>
> At least here in the UK, now UEB is becoming more available, more anti-UEB
> readers are accepting it and agreeing that the changes are in fact
> relatively straightforward and understood.  Mandatory capitalisation is
> probably the major complaint amongst older readers, but as we've pointed
> out, this has been standard elsewhere for a long time.  If anything, this is
> now helping to teach correct capitalisation.
>
> The bottom line is that this is all helping to keep the cost of producing
> braille down.
>
> With Mathematics, it has been left to individual Braille Authorities to
> decide whether or not to use Nemeth or UEB for math.  There have been some
> issues regarding Nemeth indicators within UEB, but progress has been made
> there.  The net result is that you can use UEB for text and Nemeth for
> math.
>
> George.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
> Mooney via Blindmath
> Sent: 22 March 2015 23:32
> To: Steve Jacobson; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>
> Thank you, Steve Jacobson!  As a transcriber, I know I have been stressed by
> the changes and I hope there will be workshops to help us all learn and
> adjust and that the workshops will be within reasonable traveling distance.
> (All my available crossable parts are crossed in hopes that will
> happen.)  I thought I was the only one who remembered the Taylor Code.  UEB
> is awkward right now and it looks and feels funny to me, but I hope I will
> slide right into it and that the producers of braille translation software
> develop something affordable soon.  All those hopes!  As a former teacher of
> the blind--but still a transcriber--I have one more hope and that's for the
> teachers to firmly learn UEB as well.  Thanks for such a great post!
>
> Susan M.
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Steve Jacobson via Blindmath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Heidi and others,
>>
>> First, I really do not think that you will find that your daughter's
>> education or stress level will be significantly raised by this change.
>> I say that having been required in the 1950's and 1960's to switch
>> from the Taylor Code for math, to the first version of Nemeth Code and
>> then a second version of Nemeth and there were profound differences
>> with each change.  I experienced some substantial changes to Grade Two
>> braille as well, and there were a lot of texts that were written in
>> what was called grade one-and-a-half then.  Would my life have been
>> easier if that were not the case, probably, but we didn't think a lot
>> about it.
>>
>> More generally, your friend who said change was not inevitable may
>> have been referring specifically to changing to UEB, I don't know, but
>> I believe changes to the braille code in general are inevitable.
>> Either braill had to change or it was destined to become less
>> relevant.  I believe this is the case Partly because print has changed
>> dramatically during the past three or four decades.  Also, we, as
>> blind people, are more affected by print presentation now than was the
>> case before computers, optical character recognition, and electronic
>> texts.
>>
>> It has been more than twenty years now since serious discussions began
>> as to how to make it possible for braille to better reflect changing
>> print conventions and to make better use of our ability to get text
>> electronically.  The debate has often been very emotional, and at
>> times, there was considerable polarization.
>> This means that even today, emotions run high regarding what should be
>> done with braille.  Those of you who have read "War of the Dots" know
>> this is nothing new.  I think it is safe to say that people tend to
>> get emotional when discussing something that means a great deal to
>> them.  What makes the issue even more complicated is that there is no
>> perfect solution, including doing nothing at all.
>>
>> Over time, Unified English Braille has emerged as the code that most
>> of us have gotten behind as a path forward, but certainly not all of
>> us.  In particular, some of UEB's detractors were very upset with the
>> UEB's code of mathematics.  Ueb developers did a credible job of
>> making it possible for math symbols and numbers to be written
>> consistently whether in text or within mathematics, but there seemed
>> to be a cost.  It was demonstrated by some that many mathematical
>> expressions could take as many as twice as many symbols to write, and
>> this raised concerns for many of us.  In addition, mathematical texts
>> are still particularly dependent upon humans to accurately transcribe
>> them, and changing to UEB for math would have required major
>> retraining, much more than in the case of literary braille.  For that
>> reason, a reasonable compromise seemed to be to stick with our current
>> Nemeth Code for math rather than changing both literary and
>> mathematical braille.
>>
>> If one reads the War of the Dots one learns that in the early part of
>> the twentieth century, different schools for the blind in the united
>> states taught different versions of braille.  New York Point was
>> nothing like the braille we read today, even having a differently
>> shaped cell, but it had a good deal of support a hundred years ago.
>> In addition, there were multiple versions of 6-dot braille that used
>> different sets of contractions.  It took some time for a single system
>> to evolve and to gain widespread use.  This experience makes it
>> obvious to me that we need a group to set standards, even if
>> voluntary.
>> This is pretty much what BANA is.  They don't have, to my knowledge,
>> any legal power as your friend said, but are made up of
>> representatives of many diverse groups.  Your friend is right, people
>> could ignore BANA, but where does that leave us?  Is this approach so
>> bad that it is worth fragmenting braille when it is already under such
>> pressure from other forces?  The current approach isn't perfect, but
>> neither is any other system that has been examined.
>> However, it does seem to me that the current approach of using UEB and
>> Nemeth Code for math gives us the best approach to open up braille to
>> accommodate changes in the future with the least disruption to braille
>> readers, teachers and transcribers.  Work needs to be completed as to
>> how to integrate Nemeth Code with UEB but a lot has already been
>> accomplished.
>> There is now a symbol that indicates that Nemeth Code is starting, for
>> example, that was not part of UEB even a few years ago.  The challenge
>> of how to handle short mathematical passages has not been completely
>> resolve yet but there is awareness of difficulties that can arise if
>> there are a lot of indicators switching in and out of Nemeth code.
>> Interestingly, the math books I used some years ago used the literary
>> braille numbers for page numbers and within the table of contents, and
>> even to number word problems.  Some of these conventions changed over
>> time, I understand that, but math books simply have not necessarily
>> been all Nemeth Code as was suggested.  Science texts that are less
>> mathematical have had to bounce between literary braille and Nemeth
>> Code all along and some of this will remain and it isn't really new.
>>
>> Perhaps it is too strong a statement to say that the changes are a
>> "done deal."  However, there does come a time when we need to move
>> forward and think about the path that is ahead of us, how to make it
>> better, how to make the transition as smooth as possible, and how to
>> increase our rate of literacy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 18:51:39 -0400, HPS via Blindmath wrote:
>>
>> >Yes to all Susan states, I'm a parent and my daughter is in 9th
>> >grade. I
>> don't know how this will affect her right at a critical point in high
>> school, and I'm not looking forward to dealing with all the extra
>> stress this will bring.
>> These are not simple changes as some have mentioned.
>>
>>
>> >I like to know what to expect, and what to prepare her for. This is
>> >not
>> just the job of her VI Teacher, who is still not sure what all the
>> changes are either.
>>
>>
>> >So, it seems that a lot was done and I had no idea about it til about
>> >1
>> year ago. Seems that if you don't belong to some organization you are
>> out.
>> There
>> was not a lot of talk about this in any list, that seems weird to me.
>>
>>
>> >I also since discovering this list have been interested in what all
>> >of
>> your points of view are, specifically how these changes will impact
>> any math and science students and professionals.
>>
>>
>> >As with any change there are good things and bad things that come
>> >with
>> it. In this case I do not care for the bad that this will bring, and
>> these are my daughters feelings, she is not happy with any of the
>> changes with Nemeth.
>>
>>
>> >I apologize for any grammar mistakes as English is not my first
>> > language.
>>
>>
>> >Thank you,
>>
>>
>> >Heidi
>>
>>
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Susan Jolly via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> >To: blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> >Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 6:31 pm
>> >Subject: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>>
>>
>> >I can't speak for others but here's why I'm still discussing it.
>>
>> >1. A done
>> >deal doesn't always stay done.  I thought UEB was done with in the US
>> >back when NFB passed Resolutions 2002-04 and 2002-05.
>> >2. I assume BANA is taking
>> >into consideration how the transition was and is going to be
>> >implemented in other countries, especially in Australia and New
>> >Zealand where the implementations are pretty much complete.  These
>> >two countries took a phased approach so that older students weren't
>> >confronted with a code change at critical points in their educational
>> >careers.
>> >Hopefully the more that parents,
>> >teachers, and braille learners themselves understand about the
>> >details, the better the individual decisions they can make as to
>> >timing.
>> >3. To my
>> >knowledge no country other than the US has combined Nemeth math with
>> >UEB text so my guess is that the exact rules for how this is going to
>> >be implemented are still evolving and this is where the expertise of
>> >the Blindmath community will be helpful.  For example, the person who
>> >started this thread pointed out that there are questions about how
>> >best to integrate the use of Nemeth for displayed math with
>> >associated inline math references to that displayed math.
>>
>> >Sincerely,
>> >Susan Jolly
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
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