[BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology

Tue Jul 3 19:15:37 UTC 2018

Hi there ,

I took college algebra and I used Nemeth braille.  I actually wrote a paper (dated of course) for my university.  Let me know if I can be of assistance.
Jose Tamayo 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Kendra Schaber via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11 PM
To: sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com; steve.jacobson at visi.com; 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Kendra Schaber <redwing731 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology

Hi Sarah and all!
 I also have to take a lot of math to persue my degree with environmental science and climatology as the big major field that I'm going into myself. I'm also wondering about the latest and greatest accessability tools in math as well. As I understand it, I think they are still using Neameth in the U.E.B. System but I'm not sure since I'm also an American and know more about the older system. I'm glad that you rehashed this topic!!! Since I have to start with Algebra in the winter, what are the best tools for accessable math for taking math in college? I thought that I would also add that question while I'm out here because I'd like ideas to help me prepare for this course work. Mind you, I'm just starting in Algebra and moving up so I'll also need ideas for more advanced math as well.

Thank you for taking the time to read this Email!
Blessed be!!!
Kendra Schaber
Chemeketa Community College,
350 Org,
Citizen's Climate Lobby,
National Federation of the Blind of Oregon, Capitol Chapter, Salem, Oregon.
Home Email:
Redwing731 at gmail.com
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From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 10:52:47 AM
To: steve.jacobson at visi.com; 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Cc: Sarah Jevnikar
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology

Hi Everyone,
I realize this thread is ages old, but I came across a draft response and wanted to pursue it.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I should probably give context: I recently finished my undergrad in economics and am a lifelong Nemeth user.
While I'm certainly not averse to change, I'm concerned about a potentially less efficient code and I'm not sure how I can learn it completely "on the fly" should I pursue higher education. However, as I say, I'm willing to be corrected and educated. I'd just like to learn some background for context of my own.

The State-versus-federal implementation of Nemeth or UEB is outside the scope of my interest or knowledge, given I am not in the United States.
Obviously this might affect those of us outside the US as many adaptive technology originates there and is often designed for American use first. I am curious to see how technology will keep pace with these new changes, as both Nemeth and UEB math will have to be supported, and support for any electronic math system, while certainly improving, is still in its early stages.

As I've used UEB more over the year since I wrote the above, I've come to see some benefits: it is nicer to be able to use contracted Braille and non-literary symbols, for instance. But I'm still confused with advanced math. How are things like summations, limits, etc. handled with UEB? What about those semi-bizarre symbols like the "hat" or "tilde" for variables?

Have a great day, and happy convention to those in attendance!
Sarah

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via BlindMath
Sent: July 9, 2017 10:05 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Cc: Steve Jacobson
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology

Bill,

Fear of change is always something one should watch for.  I think, though, that there is an honest feeling by many that the advantages of switching do not outweigh the disadvantages in the United States.  As was noted in another message, we are seeing some states choosing to use UEB math in some situations, and that is something I certainly never anticipated.  I think not having a consistent code here creates some real challenges here.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dengler [mailto:codeofdusk at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 1:22 PM
To: steve.jacobson at visi.com; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology

Since it is "much more difficult to switch", isn't it best to learn UEB math from the outset? Are their real disadvantages to using UEB, or is it simply that people are afraid of change?
Additionally, are there reference materials available for learning UEB math?
I found this for Nemeth: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftech.aph.org%2Fnemeth%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7652e822bc704c6640d408d5e1191928%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636662420261019219&sdata=SS4AHwNxQa1xpmf3oP00tTkxuypgTEV7agXlzk9KG1M%3D&reserved=0

Thanks,
Bill

> On Jul 8, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Steve Jacobson via BlindMath
<blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Sarah,
>
> There isn't a real simple answer to your question.  UEB math is an 
> attempt to make literary braille and mathematical braille fit together 
> better.  The period and the decimal point use the same symbol in 
> braille as they are in print, to pick a very simple example.  We see 
> more math in literary braille now, so it also means that other symbols 
> that you might see in a novel or in a magazine article are the same in 
> UEB math such as the plus sign.  It also means that internet addresses 
> can be written using the same symbols with less of a need to use a 
> separate computer braille code.  I think it is fair to say that there 
> were mathematicians involved in the development of UEB math.
>
> However, UEB math is very different than the Nemeth Code which has 
> been used for math in the United States for many years.  It is, in my 
> opinion, much more difficult to move from Nemeth Code to UEB math than 
> it is to switch to reading UEB for text.  Therefore, Nemeth Code is 
> still in use here in the United States.  Having transcribers already 
> familiar with Nemeth Code also plays a role.  There has been a good 
> deal written showing that Nemeth Code is more compact than UEB math, 
> but there are legitimate questions about some of the extreme 
> comparisons.  This has been an emotional discussion here in the United
States.
>
> I am a Nemeth Code user but have tried to portray the two codes in as 
> unbiased way as I can.  What probably determines which code you should 
> learn is where you hope to get most of your braille texts.  It is 
> going to be worth learning Nemeth Code if you will be getting math 
> texts from the United States.  If you will be getting texts from 
> Canada, then learning UEB math is probably what makes sense.
>
> Finally, I think learning either code is sometimes made to sound 
> harder than it needs to be.  There are a lot of math symbols that 
> sighted people don't learn at the outset.  If one learns what one 
> needs to perform the math at a given level, the job isn't that tough.
> One can then build upon what one learns as one gets into more complex 
> math.  It is, for example, hard to remember the integral sign if one 
> does
not know what an integral is.
>
> Perhaps others who have used UEB math more than I will correct 
> anything here that is wrong.  I hope, though, that we can avoid a long 
> discussion of which is best.  I personally believe using the Nemeth 
> Code in the United States makes sense for us, but I do not believe 
> that means that UEB math is not a valid and useful code.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 12:39 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sarah Jevnikar <sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com>
> Subject: [BlindMath] UEB Math History/Methodology
>
> Hi all,
> I'd like to better understand the thinking behind UEB math. While 
> Nemeth isn't perfect, UEB math seems more cumbersome and convoluted.
> Please correct me if I'm out of line here.
>
> Canada has done a full change to UEB, including mathematics. Therefore 
> I'll have to work with it at some point. I'm concerned though that 
> it's a step backwards towards the inclusion of blind students and
professionals in STEM.
> Again, I am willing to be wrong here.
>
> My question is this: what are the benefits of UEB math? Who created 
> it? Were they mathematicians/familiar with math? Is the move away from 
> Nemeth something to be celebrated? Where does it leave 
> Braille-to-print translation, which was imperfect for Nemeth as it 
> was, but at least it existed? Does such Braille-to-print and 
> print-to-Braille translation have a technological solution for UEB 
> math? I know that LaTeX is really the only universally usable option 
> for blind creators of STEM stuff, but having a Braille option would 
> also
be ideal.
>
> Thank you very much for your insight. All the best to everyone 
> attending Convention this year. I was hoping this would be my first, 
> but summer school got in the way...
>
> Thanks again,
> Sarah
>
>
> I hope this makes
>
>
>
>
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