[BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and Understandably

Lukasz Grabowski graboluk at gmail.com
Thu May 3 23:58:22 UTC 2018 

Jonathan,

No need to reminding me about the purpose of this list - I make all my
posts here fully aware of it.

In short, I think that perhaps you should explicitly write that your
experience with using latex, markdown, word, etc. for mathematical
notation is from a perspective of someone who needs only a relatively
lite usage of mathematical formulas in the output which you produce
(i.e. substantial, but an order of magnitude less than what would be
used in a typical pure mathematics university course, or research
papers). Perhaps in that context your comparison of "theoretical
efficiency" of ms word and markdown/latex is defendable.

However, due to personal bias I assumed that the original poster is
interested in pure maths university courses, in which case I believe
your claim that ms word and markdown can be used as efficiently when
preparing output, is not defendable and false (and certainly your
personal experience cannot be used to support it, as I think you'd
agree you have too little experience with writing output where usage of
mathematical formulas is as heavy as in pure mathematics (unless you
were actively taking notes during your undergrad years))

I certainly see some "high level" virtue in your "not saying that what
I do is universally best for everyone on this list", but on the other
hand, it is as close as possible to objective truth that using ms word
for producing math heavy content is inferior in every aspect to using
say markdown with latex, except for the initial efforts.

Best,
Lukasz


On Thu, 3 May 2018 23:09:04 +0000
"Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Lucasz: Let me remind you that this is a list for discussing issues
> in mathematics and related fields with respect to blind people. To
> suggest that the experiences of sighted people should direct a young
> blind person wanting to get into a STEM discipline is flawed unless
> it addresses the myriad access challenges that we face.
> 
> As it happens, I am not a mathematician. I accept that an academic
> mathematician who lacks skill in document preparation using LaTeX is
> often the victim of derision, but mathematical content is not just
> found in documents written by mathematicians. All of my colleagues
> are skilled in writing documents using MS Word; most are similarly
> competent in LaTeX, and a small number know they can use markdown,
> while many others are just unaware they could do so if the need
> arose. As a statistician, I work with mathematicians (Fullard et al.
> 2018), ecologists (Minards et al. 2014; Bulgarella et al. 2015;
> Fitness et al. 2015), agriculturalists (Giltrap and Godfrey 2016),
> medical doctors (Prisk et al. 2016) and even some other statisticians
> (Premarathna et al. 2016;2017). Only the first and last of these
> collaborations was LaTeX based, while the others were MS Word. In all
> the meetings I have ever had for these collaborations, the primary
> tool for note-taking for the sighted people was pen and paper. I am
> strange in these sighted contexts for my use of a laptop.
> 
> All my notes for these collaborations are written in text files with
> content easily transferred into the primary author's preferred tool
> as required. I am able to create content for myself and then for
> sharing without inflicting my collaborators with the access issues
> their preferred tools create for me. As it happens, MS Word is the
> last software tool I would use for writing up notes. My advice is not
> saying that what I do is universally best for everyone on this list.
> 
> I write from personal experience of a blind person using all the
> tools that get mentioned on this list and others. It is in my best
> interests as a blind person wanting to stay at the top of my game to
> do so. I have worked with numerous blind students over the years who
> want solutions that are within their grasp, not false hopes. I often
> find myself saying that this is the best we can do now, but work in
> certain areas shows promise. So while I might use command line tools
> all the time, I seldom advise their use by young people struggling
> with the tools they already have because my experience shows that
> most of them do not have any command-line experience, and nor do the
> support people around them. I'd like that to change.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jonathan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lukasz
> Grabowski via BlindMath Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 9:48 a.m.
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Lukasz Grabowski <graboluk at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and
> Understandably
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> Your statement about comparable efficiency is, in my humble opinion
> of a professional pure mathematicians with many years of experience
> at lecturing, research, taking notes, etc., completely false. While
> we will not settle it here directly, a strong indirect argument is
> that if they were of comparable efficiency then more professional
> mathematicians would use it for preparing lecture notes, articles,
> etc. As I'm sure you know, the amount of professional pure
> mathematicians using word is absolutely negligible (to the extent
> that people who use it are subjects of anecdotes passed around during
> conference dinners, etc.). 
> 
> As for specifically taking notes in pure maths lectures, I have
> absolutely never seen anyone who'd use word for this purpose, only
> either latex or markdown.
> 
> (There are also of course other issues, of interoperability and so
> on, which are also important, and if one consider these, then
> obviously using word for anything at all is, for lack of a better
> word, irresponsible) 
> 
> Best,
> Lukasz
> 
> P.S. As for usage of \ in markdown, I can't agree with you: the
> example of Brandon was a transcription, and it was mildly important
> to distinguish between newlines and paragraphs. But even in markdown
> for say taking notes, if you want to produce material which works
> both for you and for sighted users then the cleanest way to write say
> multiline equation is with explicit \
> 
> On Thu, 3 May 2018 21:18:36 +0000
> "Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> > I quite obviously disagree with Lucasz's statement that markdown is 
> > more efficient than MS Word for note-taking.
> > 
> > They can be totally equivalent in that the content of the markdown 
> > document can be copy and pasted into a MS Word document and
> > converted to quite readable content as quickly inside Word.
> > 
> > In fact, I can see how a good MS Word user who knows the necessary 
> > keystrokes could get to the same endpoint in about the same time.
> > 
> > Different solutions will work better for different people. I think 
> > that outright statements are risky at best and are often leading 
> > people astray.
> > 
> > Jonathan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Lukasz 
> > Grabowski via BlindMath Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 9:00 a.m.
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: Lukasz Grabowski <graboluk at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and 
> > Understandably
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Yes I can confirm it is fundamentally incorrect, to say the least 
> > ("not even wrong", as the saying goes). In order to understand that
> > it is so, you would have to compare both methods at, say,  taking
> > notes for an advanced university-level mathematics course, in which
> > case you would realize that the efficiency of using markdown with
> > latex is orders of magnitude higher than using word with mathtype.
> > 
> > 
> > Best,
> > Lukasz
> > 
> > 		
> > 
> > On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:35:01 +0530
> > Bhavya shah via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >   
> > > Hi Brandon,
> > > 
> > > In essence, this method is very similar to how I used to use
> > > LaTeX of MathType to generate Math ML content that was visually
> > > readible and screen reader firnedly with the help of NVDA and
> > > Math Player. However, my only two concerns are that using LaTeX
> > > or any other standardized Math code to type would almost
> > > invariably mean (1) slightly longer and stricter syntax that
> > > would need to be mandatorily followed, and (2) there are several
> > > reasons, some of which include lack of customization in
> > > pronunciation and excessive pausing, why I found reading Math ML
> > > with the help of Math Player and NVDA somewhat cumbersome in my
> > > past experiences. If I come to think of it, it is quite certain
> > > that at some point in time, either for typing my own Math&Science
> > > or for reading my transcribed course material, I will need to
> > > deal with Math ML using Math Player and NVDA, so in a day at
> > > most, I will be retrying Math ML and sharing some of the more
> > > significant concerns and issues I have with interacting with Math
> > > ML.
> > > 
> > > Kindly let me know if my present understanding of the method you 
> > > described that this is just Pandoc instead of MathType and 
> > > commandline instead of Word for using LaTeX to generate Math ML 
> > > content is fundamentally incorrect.
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > On 5/3/18, Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath
> > > <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:    
> > > > Hello,
> > > > Markdown with LaTeX is perfect for you. Here is an example that 
> > > > Lukasz (from this list wrote):
> > > >
> > > > ## Parametric Forms
> > > >
> > > > *transcriber: system of two equations, each one has an extra 
> > > > information after comma* \ $x = t^2 -2t$, $dx = 2t-2$ \ $y=
> > > > t+1$, minimum at $t=1$ \
> > > > *transcriber: end of the system*
> > > >
> > > > For window:
> > > > \
> > > > $t$ from $[-2,4]$, $t$ step $= 0.1$ \ $x$ from $[-1,10]$ \ $y$ 
> > > > from $[-1,5]$
> > > >
> > > > # something easier
> > > >
> > > > $3x + y = 10$
> > > > \
> > > > $9 * 5 = 45$
> > > > \
> > > > Fractions
> > > > \
> > > > $\frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{2} = 1$
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This converts perfectly to MathML using pandoc:
> > > > https://pandoc.org/
> > > >
> > > > You install pandoc, open a command line where you have the math 
> > > > content and type:
> > > >
> > > > pandoc my_math_file.md --mathml -s -o my_html_output_file.html
> > > >
> > > > You can give your professor the html file and they can read it
> > > > in print just fine. If you have a Braille display, the MathML
> > > > shows up just fine and it is also read by the screen reader.
> > > > NVDA requires Math player (see the user guide under reading
> > > > math content for more info). Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Sean Tikkun via BlindMath
> > > > < blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:    
> > > >      
> > > >> Bhavya Shah,
> > > >>
> > > >>    I am assembling a team to generate 3D models to assist in 
> > > >> learning. The team leaders are a former math teacher fluent in 
> > > >> Braille (me) and a Fabrication lab director that teaches 
> > > >> Biological and Chemical Sciences at the University level. If
> > > >> you have access to 3D printing I would love to know what you
> > > >> may need. Files are easy to send. If not, perhaps there is a 
> > > >> fabrication lab at a university in Mumbai that would be 
> > > >> interested in some collaboration? Feel free to reach out.
> > > >> stikkun at nccu.edu.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Sean Tikkun
> > > >> Apple Distinguished Educator
> > > >> class of 2007
> > > >>
> > > >> On May 01, 2018, at 08:51 PM, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath <     
> > > >> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:    
> > > >>
> > > >> I typed most of my math using the first method. You might be
> > > >> able to type more quickly if you had a braille keyboard. Also
> > > >> note that you can use parentheses and brackets. The Pearce in
> > > >> equation editor can produce math in a visual format. It is
> > > >> free. The braille note touch can do this as well although it
> > > >> is very expensive. I would definitely say to use a keyboard.
> > > >> Do not type on your phone as I am doing now because it is much
> > > >> slower. Another
> > > >> thing you can do is use copy and paste. You do not have to
> > > >> type everything from scratch. You can copy previous steps to
> > > >> your clipboard, paste them, and then modify them to create
> > > >> your future steps. Like for example, you might write a
> > > >> chemical equation that is not balanced. Paste this equation
> > > >> underneath it so you have two copies of the same equation.
> > > >> Then, take the first step toward balancing that equation and
> > > >> make those changes to your second copy. Now you have your
> > > >> equation and underneath it, you have the modified version with
> > > >> step one completed, so copied the version with step one
> > > >> completed to your clipboard and paste it underneath. Now you
> > > >> have the original equation, and you have two copies of step
> > > >> one. Modified the second copy of step one based on what you
> > > >> plan to do in step two. Continue this method until you have
> > > >> finished the problem. With a braille keyboard, you should be
> > > >> able to type as fast as someone can speak and even faster. If
> > > >> you cannot or a braille keyboard is not an option, you can
> > > >> record what is being said with a phone or other recording
> > > >> device and you can then go back over it. Another thing you can
> > > >> do is request things in electronic format. Mini American
> > > >> professors do not know how to create accessible math when it
> > > >> is really very easy as you described. You do not have to know
> > > >> any markup languages. You can create accessible math just by
> > > >> using your computer keyboard, and in many cases, if you are a
> > > >> computer science student, your math is in the perfect format
> > > >> to just paste right over into your ide. Maybe Indian
> > > >> professors would be better at creating accessible. If not, you
> > > >> might be able to find someone who can do it. This will be
> > > >> especially easy if you can find some funding. I was not lucky
> > > >> in this regard because other than professors, I never found a
> > > >> dedicated person who knew how to produce accessible math. I
> > > >> finally got to a position where I could no longer receive
> > > >> accessible math because I moved on to a four-year university
> > > >> where the professors did not know how to produce it. It is
> > > >> very ironic that when I started out at a two year university,
> > > >> the professors did know how to produce it. I approach
> > > >> programmers, professors, deans, and department head. No one
> > > >> actually knew how including the programmers who produce
> > > >> accessible math every day. I finally had to end up listening
> > > >> to my math on recordings and writing everything down. It was
> > > >> very difficult. If you want to get math in braille, there is
> > > >> software that can do it called Duxberry. Ironically, my
> > > >> university actually had this software, but no one knew how to
> > > >> use it including the people who worked at disability services.
> > > >> Getting it for yourself will not be helpful. If you get this
> > > >> software, you will need someone who can modify the equations
> > > >> for you. If your professor has files that were generated from
> > > >> a markup language, you could try asking for those source
> > > >> files. Even if you do not know the markup language, math is
> > > >> written very similarly when you are programming computers, so
> > > >> you could probably pick up how to read it. Unfortunately, my
> > > >> professors used PDFs that they got from other sources or
> > > >> pictures of hand written documents so I could not do this.
> > > >> People will try to tell you that Matt cannot be produced
> > > >> excessively on the computer. This simply is not true. Every
> > > >> mathematical formula, function, and number known to humankind
> > > >> can be programmed into a computer using a text based
> > > >> programming language. Also, many of these functions and
> > > >> formulas can be put into XL. If you can put these formulas
> > > >> into XL, then you can produce them accessibly in a word
> > > >> document. If someone is trying to tell you that they can't,
> > > >> then just tell them to put it in a spreadsheet, press F2 on
> > > >> the cells, and read the formulas that way. XL is very good
> > > >> because you can use it to organize data, you can use it as a
> > > >> calculator, and you can use it to create tables and graphs.
> > > >> You can put these documents in your dropbox and you can get
> > > >> the pictures of the graphs. You can then import these pictures
> > > >> into the voice app on your phone and you can listen to them.
> > > >> If you are going to listen to pie charts, to make it easier on
> > > >> yourself to read, use the 3-D exploding pie charts. This may
> > > >> sound counterintuitive, but when you listen to them, there is
> > > >> a bit more separation between each piece. I don't know how you
> > > >> would get training to listen to grass. I just automatically
> > > >> was born knowing how to do it. No one ever taught me. I could
> > > >> always listen to graphs very easily and I could never read
> > > >> tactile graphics. There is also a program called math tracks
> > > >> where you can create audio graphs by entering in
> > > >> equations.However, it is really best to have both the equation
> > > >> and the data because what if you created a graph using any
> > > >> equation, and you need to make some changes to the data? Well,
> > > >> you don't have the data, so what are you going to do? You
> > > >> could probably generate the data from the equation in some
> > > >> cases, but that will take forever. I like to listen to a graph
> > > >> and have the spreadsheet in front of me at the same time.
> > > >> There is also a blind chemist named Dr. sapalo. I'm not sure
> > > >> how to spell his name. I have his card somewhere but I just
> > > >> have to find it. I really wish people would start using those
> > > >> barcode Cards where I can scan the contact information into my
> > > >> phone, but I only know one person who uses those. Anyways, You
> > > >> may want to get in touch with him. He has all of these probes.
> > > >> They do all different things. They connect to a computer and
> > > >> they can measure chemical reactions and make graphs and do all
> > > >> this stuff depending on what probe you use. For example, you
> > > >> could use one probe to graph the color changes that occur
> > > >> during an experiment. You could use another probe to track
> > > >> temperature changes like ice melting. I don't really do
> > > >> chemistry, but if I did, I imagine I would want this thing,
> > > >> but I can't remember what it is called. But he is actually a
> > > >> chemistry professor at a university. He is totally blind and
> > > >> he teaches classes and runs labs and does all sorts of things.
> > > >> There are plenty of blind computer scientists, but he struck
> > > >> my interest in particular because I have not heard of mini
> > > >> blind chemists. He also had some good advice for 3-D printing
> > > >> that would work in the United States, but I am not sure if it
> > > >> would work in India. If possible though, you may want to get
> > > >> some 3-D models printed. Another thing is that you want to
> > > >> stay consistent. You want to make sure that you are doing
> > > >> things in the classroom the same way you will do them during
> > > >> testing. In my chemistry class, I did not have access to a lot
> > > >> of 3-D models, but for testing purposes, they made me a 3-D
> > > >> model. This really was not fair because it was made out of a
> > > >> lot of cups and straws. I did not know what it was, and it is
> > > >> not fair to use models for testing purposes that you did not
> > > >> use in the classroom or to use a different method for testing
> > > >> purposes that you did not use in the classroom because this
> > > >> will skew the results. If you use certain accommodations in
> > > >> the classroom, insist on the same accommodations for testing.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sabra Ewing
> > > >>
> > > >> On May 1, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Bhavya shah via BlindMath <     
> > > >> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:    
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear all,
> > > >>
> > > >> I am Bhavya Shah, a totally blind 16-year-old student from 
> > > >> Mumbai, India. Having just completed my tenth grade with the
> > > >> same Mathematics and Science syllabus as my sighted peers in a 
> > > >> mainstream school, I intend to take up the Science stream 
> > > >> according to the Indian education system for Classes 11 and 12 
> > > >> with the subject combination of Physics+Chemistry+Mathematics, 
> > > >> and probably take up something along the lines of Computer 
> > > >> Science for my undergraduate studies after that (although I 
> > > >> shouldn’t overly worry about about finalizing that for now, I 
> > > >> suppose). Additionally, I shall be enrolling into coaching for
> > > >> a very competitive pan-India engineering entrance examination
> > > >> over the next two years where I will be delving into
> > > >> particularly advanced topics in to the three afore-mentioned
> > > >> subjects.
> > > >>
> > > >> Till Class 10, I managed an overwhelming chunk of Math either 
> > > >> orally or mentally, and from what I have been informed, have 
> > > >> dealt with relatively very simple organic structures, general 
> > > >> numericals and chemical equations which I have been handling 
> > > >> mostly via plain text. It has become increasingly clear to me 
> > > >> that this makeshift method will be extremely inefficient and 
> > > >> consequently infeasible for the kind of syllabus I am 
> > > >> transitioning to. Hence, I am looking for different
> > > >> techniques, tools or methods of typing Math and Science that
> > > >> will allow me to be as rapid a Math&Science typist as I am of
> > > >> the English language (at its peak, my fingers have achieved
> > > >> about 100 WPM) so that I can cope with the daily rigor this
> > > >> coaching demands. I need to be able to type mathematical and
> > > >> scientific content accurately and swiftly not necessarily such
> > > >> that it is visually readable by a sighted professor but more
> > > >> so for my own reference, understanding and purposes of review
> > > >> and revision.
> > > >>
> > > >> So far, I am versed only with two options – ASCII Math, where
> > > >> I would just type Math and Science using standard symbols
> > > >> present on any keyboard such as /, *, ^ and so on to denote
> > > >> different things (perhaps (x+2)/x-1)) in chiefly plain text,
> > > >> or type things in LaTeX using MathType ($\frac{x+2}{x-1}$) and
> > > >> employ Math Player and NVDA to read it. From my basic
> > > >> understanding of this and limited past experience with each of
> > > >> these methods, the former sounds much faster and more
> > > >> efficient to me, but I am open to evidence and experiences
> > > >> suggesting otherwise. There are various other Math typing
> > > >> tools I have heard about over the years such as Infty Reader
> > > >> and Lean Math, but have never adequately researched them let
> > > >> alone used them to any extent. Any information or
> > > >> instructional material on these and other potential
> > > >> alternatives you would recommend would be of great help too.
> > > >>
> > > >> I would truly appreciate any assistance on different
> > > >> strategies you may have used to math your sighted
> > > >> counterparts’ speed in terms of writing and solving
> > > >> mathematical and scientific material, questions and problem
> > > >> sets.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Best Regards
> > > >> Bhavya Shah
> > > >>
> > > >> Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons:
> > > >> https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
> > > >>
> > > >> Contacting Me
> > > >> E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125 at gmail.com
> > > >> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/
> > > >> Twitter: @BhavyaShah125
> > > >> Skype: bhavya.09
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > >> lindmath-gems-home>
> > > >>
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> > > >>      
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> > > > 12
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> > > >      
> > > 
> > >     
> > 
> > 
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