[BlindMath] BlindMath Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3

Fri Sep 13 17:59:56 UTC 2019

To be factual here, one can absolutely say one platform is or is not better for a particular task when one platform contains better solutions for interacting with MathML, which was alluded to in the first message. This is not something based on opinion, but on actual presence of affordances. My or anyone else's opinion is inconsequential. It's a matter of what is or is not there, literally.

As far as general use, overall accessibility, etc., I have no interest in such debates, as they are counterproductive and often not rooted in evidence, but for interacting with MathML? Yes, one can make a factual claim, IMHO.

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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 9:58 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] BlindMath Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3

Elizabeth,

I have limited exposure to VoiceOver on the MAC having spent most of my life in the Windows world.  Still, I have come to the position that one can't flat out say that one system is better than the other, they are different.  There are clearly some things that VoiceOver does better than do screen readers in the Windows environment, but there cases where the same can be said of the Windows world.  Having said all this, are you saying in your note below that Windows screen readers can't do such things as reading technical symbols?  I think that capability is in both platforms but it can depend upon which software that one uses to some degree.  I would truly like to understand this more completely.  To be clear, I am really glad we have the support that exists on the MAC.  It provides a valuable alternative, and as you say, there are cases where it is the platform of choice for certain careers.  I have done a good deal of audio editing in Windows for a good number of years now, but I am hoping to get some exposure to how it is done on the MAC, because I've heard that certain aspects are easier.  However, even with my first name, I am no "Stevie wonder."  <smile>, 

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Pyatt, Elizabeth J via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:06 AM
To: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu; blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10 at psu.edu>
Subject: [BlindMath] Fwd: BlindMath Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3

Susan:

I worked with two students now who are on VoiceOver/Mac and who really prefer it over JAWS/NVDA. One is hoping to go into sound production and that environment is extremely Mac dependent. In fact an Apple commercial features Stevie Wonder using VoiceOver and a digital music program before he sings with Audra Day.

It’s true that the Mac won’t work with MathML in Word, but will read it in an HTML document. Fortunately, the Central Washington CAR tool https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwu.edu%2Fcentral-access%2Freader&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caf4784f3fc5a4141400f08d7384b552c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637039768513669503&sdata=lBAP5CZLBXp6GMKvx9JDg3d6Qh2JyxTFQ7iutgXgE4A%3D&reserved=0 (Windows) can convert an accessible Word document with MathType embedded equations to HTML with usable MathML.

What I really love about VoiceOver though is its default support for technical symbols (the minus sign, negative numbers, math operators, Greek letters, logic symbols, arrows). When an expression is just one line, we can often write it out as plain text for VoiceOver students, but would need to convert it to MathML/MathType for JAWS/NVDA.

For a Stats course, we learned to supplement that with ASCII math expressions like x-bar, h0 (h sub 0), x^y (x to the y) to avoid using MathML except for extremely complicated equations.

Of course, the student will likely need to learn VoiceOver someday, but it is actually very powerful. Since so many computer scientists use Mac/Unix combinations, I understand why he wants to stay on that platform.

Apple has some good VoiceOver training materials at
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhelp.apple.com%2Fvoiceover%2Fmac%2F10.14%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caf4784f3fc5a4141400f08d7384b552c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637039768513669503&sdata=x65%2FiTrv%2FTsA0yZU7aSWzy%2FRKn6s%2Bx%2BbnkYYH1TXJtM%3D&reserved=0

The interface is definitely different from JAWS/NVDA, but once you work with it a bit, it really does have some nice features. For one thing, it can highlight the text its reading which could help low vision users make a transition. At some point, learning to use JAWS/NVDA is also useful when that’s the best options.

Hope this is useful.

P.S. Full disclosure, I am a sighted Mac user, but am able to also use Windows as needed for producing ALT formats.

Begin forwarded message:

From: blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
Subject: BlindMath Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3
Date: September 13, 2019 at 8:00:01 AM EDT
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Reply-To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu<mailto:Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>>
Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post, and
have learned a lot.  I'm an alternate format provider for students at the
University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to help
my student.

He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to move
to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader.  He has familiarity with
Voiceover on his Mac.  He has some vision and has gotten through math in the
past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college career where
this is just not going to be enough.

I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows
machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac.  I've
tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.
I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try to
open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is missing),
I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype.  Nothing is working.  I
can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to anything but
"all" or "some" but no fine tuning.  So while it reads the math it puts in a
lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and doesn't read the
basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some."  I am creating all files in
Word with Mathtype on a PC.

Any suggestions for me and my student?

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
University of Colorado Boulder
303-735-4836

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Accessibility IT Consultant
ejp10 at psu.edu<mailto:ejp10 at psu.edu>

The 300 Building, 112
304 West College Avenue
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