[BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Fri Sep 13 22:40:39 UTC 2019

It's always valuable to know multiple operating systems. I personally own a Mac, a PC-style laptop that dual boots Linux and Windows, as well as a couple of iOS devices. I have access to an Amazon Tablet (running an Android-based system) and, in my work environment, to Chrome OS.

As noted earlier in this discussion, Microsoft Windows can run on a Mac in a virtual machine; or, if that isn't adequate, in Bootcamp. Linux can do likewise, although I'm not sure whether it can be installed directly on newer Mac hardware.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:42 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

The student is in differential equations and linear algebra courses this semester. Yes, there are matrices.  Lots and lots of matrices.  He needs Windows + NVDA + Mathplayer and MathML files.  He is not going to get the same functionality on the Mac, even with a bunch of crazy single-step workarounds.

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 3:36 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Ed brings up a great additional solution. On IOS devices, the Math exploration support isn't bad. I wouldn't say that it is "great", especially for basically anything involving matrices, step-wise functions, complex integrals, nested series, calculus-based statistics past the intro stuff, etc., but this all may be out of scope for your student, and therefore does not matter.

Note, much like Ed, I haven't played with that in a little bit, so I can't recall whether or not VO allows for both Nemeth and UEB output, for example, especially on the math side, which may matter depending on how your student was taught mathematics in Braille, if at all, so something else to keep in mind.

I will point out though, and with tons of bias, that I still feel
MathPlayer+NVDA is absolutely the most fully-featured way of exploring
mathematics in existence. The bias part comes from the fact that I spent 3 to 4+ years helping develop those techniques with Neil Soiffer (who, as far as I'm concerned is the most under-recognized hero of access to mathematics in our community), but the factual part comes from, don't bother with what I think and feel free to investigate on your own and read ETS's associated papers, etc.

Personal story: I will never, ever, forget the feeling of just pure awe when I was able to browse Euler's equations, Einstein's special relativity formulas, the Riemann Zeta function, etc. just by doing some Google searches across Wikipedia, and that was also in Nemeth under my fingertips ... that was a big deal. I would have absolutely done anything for that in high school/undergrad. Pondering that too much makes me sound old, though, haha e.g. kids have it so good these days. The point is that, they don't. There are still huge disparities in equitable access to the most basic tenants of mathematics education, but it is absolutely getting better, and noticeably so, which is amazing and awesome.

Take care,
Sina

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web.cisco.com%2F19n1e2Jbkz42iDH-5Pdoceh13su44yrRxguReza8A2BJrnxrmWf34Atf3hHTMqNlGk4Lmp0R00mjrfP0dMcycPyfXUxZENLcqMhCqujBGM8RBEswnx7zz-LebWwx5j52Z3C69OD6kIffTNDWp8jgJwz2L1ZNXE5EyZFngI8ufEqZMJt1nC6PHpy_dDbyrSVkkvwlz8Sdbdxz5GmTHeAj9kS0IlokqoJ4U3aICBHJqSq7seIXGxhjsotT5LXyOmaD1bM1tkhdqZW8gYHZ4fzkl6Nq_8J3rTtWFi4-03QYtJe2pPkHnpvkMiK93_3oze7Hlx3Q1JYNb_m-7826bNV5alWusC97WAcsS8TeGmSWJ-IbscE3H3Ov-PeWcPPejr6UE2Yuanns8ifvhQYuvjy_5SJCVVVxDGC7ZWa8s0gXOFuPQjDsT-wYyKTaOe5NAhV9b_kNzWjCjMMf_iMMbX7rs8g%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.PAC.bz&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Ce2ccfd6f57814d6e5bcf08d7389381d7%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637040078703744716&sdata=CDxX7F5OuM3hvZZm6SwetBgKgsC7WoBL1odYsfrBqUM%3D&reserved=0
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:11 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Please verify your markup is correct. I just tested equations on this page using VO + Safari on my iPhone. Works great. My sighted colleague confirmed full screen display of equations and terms.

https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.freedomscientific.com%2Fcontent%2Fhtml%2Fjawshq%2FMathML-Samples.htm&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Ce2ccfd6f57814d6e5bcf08d7389381d7%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637040078703754713&sdata=LvmHeYj1Hb%2FdXIg2gCMLn%2FrD9jpRxodmxATXVaV3Khs%3D&reserved=0
l

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 4:41 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

EXTERNAL

Yes, I've tried it with Safari and Voiceover.  I get an javascript error just opening the file in Safari.

I appreciate everyone's advice and help!  I am still learning so many things.

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 2:38 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Sina, well said. I agree 100%.

Susan, have you tried viewing your MathML  in Safari on iOS using VoiceOver?
I haven't tested it in some time. However, in the past it had decent braille/speech support and it also displays the equation, individual terms, etc full screen. It's a really nice feature for users with low vision.

The video in this blog post shows how to access MathML in an iBook. However, the behavior is the same in Safari.

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1pfRZpLyxwF0kR3bPQ2ndLOypWMTbxeHH6C7vbxk19sGe0SIABYm2T1gWuUnGF-
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TG2Upt4bcaNH24inaBiKGhJrxP1Q%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/1bw1vkua2jlaga0_QV-IuO6yz0bodC4m9lmNpZjhCZ9YzoNgLnii7A8NKZhJ71A6LlvkeSjXXecH1VUmNLewAlhE5eZYdwg3r-tu8AyMLa_MyvpN9-J3h7EVJFov2V0iDBrQJvxJ7yMqHlHsAY7DV62qsc_AWOCnWUCgGdH6NBy2OzugrFVlgmzqmBYze2h99IFEdyQm0tKYO9BPRBx4ES9TiZJQXA-eBSLRG5wZX5GvT7nMgTebdQrxZW0iNP1krJLkXzsOVmlbeFO8LgXVtwB-JOUoT1BsUFt8PB7SeVxaYpcevHR1iq79lk0S3zBu-aJmJ33gNb6r0n3zUDe-r78xILnIB4GrkEnJ9M9SE9ctUnth9NmIM5E41Mrqp2mc-BUQnv2vwcmo2rl3dxXviCzZTRFe8hPdksnVl2jIUY86OWLgEpvupV_R5vp9YM73LfvXNVHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%
252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a
mp;data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%7C
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Hope that helps,

Ed

p.s. If he's low vision and he refuses to use a screen reader, I would be willing to bet his reading rate is very slow. I'm on a mission to help all students with VIB increase their reading rate to ~600 words per minute.
Please refer him to my blog series on this topic:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1cSF4MiqJn2-ha0xenuWeZJslZ_rxhwN5F_OgCT4hre2rIqlkNKViddHgqIerU8
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:46 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

EXTERNAL

Susan,

It's not fair, but sometimes we need to use the right tool for the job.

Currently, a Mac is simply the wrong tool for reading and exploring mathematics. Your student needs to understand this. Is the resistance from a lack of understanding, a resistance to change, or something else? They may be asked to learn different platforms in an eventual job as well, so they should start now when they arguably have more free-time and resources to help them, such as yourself.

They can do their email, games, and whatever else they like on their Mac, but Windows provides you NVDA, and NVDA+MathPlayer gets you excellent speech and Braille for the mathematics encoded as you have described.

They don't even need to change their hardware, necessarily, as they could run Windows inside of a VM on their Mac, thereby taking advantage of both worlds.

If they are unwilling to change, then I wish you both luck, and know that you can't always convince folks to use the right solution, even when you try all sorts of rational and emotional arguments. Try not to take that too hard, as it's out of your control.

Thanks for what you do, by the way, it makes a huge impact in people's lives.

Take care,

Sina

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
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Twitter: @SinaBahram

Personal Website:
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-----Original Message-----

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM

To: blindmath at nfbnet.org

Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>

Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post, and have learned a lot.  I'm an alternate format provider for students at the University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to help my student.

He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to move to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader.  He has familiarity with Voiceover on his Mac.  He has some vision and has gotten through math in the past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college career where this is just not going to be enough.

I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac.  I've tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.

I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try to open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is missing), I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype.  Nothing is working.  I can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to anything but "all" or "some" but no fine tuning.  So while it reads the math it puts in a lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and doesn't read the basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some."  I am creating all files in Word with Mathtype on a PC.

Any suggestions for me and my student?

Susan Kelmer

Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services University of Colorado Boulder

303-735-4836

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