[BlindMath] [Blind Math] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Sun Sep 15 18:17:13 UTC 2019

Sina I hate to argue with you because we agree about 90 % of the time.  I
went through college with no braille.  I only had to do 5 college level math
classes because I tested pretty High.  With that said I took.  One class on
matrixes, one on Trig, and all three top Calculus classes.   I did them all
without braille.  I did my own work on homework but this was 27 years ago
and I had a reader for my exams.  I am saying this not to say it is the
perfect way to do it but I was able to do 5 page Calculus problems and large
matrixes with no braille.  

Now that I am bigger into braille I do agree that it would have helped.
Note though I got straight 'A' in all my math classes.  So while it would
have helped not having it did not destroy my chances in the classes.  It  is
really up to the student what they need and how much struggle they want to
go through to get the information out.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 7:00 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

I know this list is not meant to solve people's accommodations problems, but
there were a hell of a lot of people looking out for me when I was in this
boat, and so, begging the list's forgiveness, but this is important, and
paying it forward is the only way we improve things for everyone, so I'd
like to delve into this a bit.

Oh wow, that changes things a bit, at least as far as I'm concerned. I claim
he needs Braille, and yesterday. Differential equations, ok, not ideal, but
I did some trivial ones in my head back in undergrad, and even then I had
braille for scratch, but linear algebra is just highly improbable to have
success at without braille. We're talking 5x5 matrices with operations being
done on them, that's 25 numbers at a time ... just no. The working memory
flushes from a single operation on that kind of matrix is ridiculous. It
would take him an order of magnitude longer to solve a problem using
single-line display and speech than a sighted counterpart, or at least,
*shrug*, that's been my experience.

How is he even doing simple things like just checking if a matrix is in row
echelon form? That's just a finger drag in Braille. I'm the most
tech-positive person I know, but there are fundamental physical advantages
to Braille when it comes to matrices, and I'm sorry, we haven't solved those
problems as computer scientists yet.

Anyways, I wish to be careful not to project solutions that worked for me
onto him, but just examining this from first principles makes me concerned
about a purely digital solution. Do let me know if I've missed something
earlier in the thread and he does have access to a Braille book?

Take care,
Sina

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://www.PAC.bz
Twitter: @SinaBahram
Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:42 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

The student is in differential equations and linear algebra courses this
semester. Yes, there are matrices.  Lots and lots of matrices.  He needs
Windows + NVDA + Mathplayer and MathML files.  He is not going to get the
same functionality on the Mac, even with a bunch of crazy single-step
workarounds.  

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 3:36 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Ed brings up a great additional solution. On IOS devices, the Math
exploration support isn't bad. I wouldn't say that it is "great", especially
for basically anything involving matrices, step-wise functions, complex
integrals, nested series, calculus-based statistics past the intro stuff,
etc., but this all may be out of scope for your student, and therefore does
not matter.

Note, much like Ed, I haven't played with that in a little bit, so I can't
recall whether or not VO allows for both Nemeth and UEB output, for example,
especially on the math side, which may matter depending on how your student
was taught mathematics in Braille, if at all, so something else to keep in
mind.

I will point out though, and with tons of bias, that I still feel
MathPlayer+NVDA is absolutely the most fully-featured way of exploring
mathematics in existence. The bias part comes from the fact that I spent 3
to 4+ years helping develop those techniques with Neil Soiffer (who, as far
as I'm concerned is the most under-recognized hero of access to mathematics
in our community), but the factual part comes from, don't bother with what I
think and feel free to investigate on your own and read ETS's associated
papers, etc.

Personal story: I will never, ever, forget the feeling of just pure awe when
I was able to browse Euler's equations, Einstein's special relativity
formulas, the Riemann Zeta function, etc. just by doing some Google searches
across Wikipedia, and that was also in Nemeth under my fingertips ... that
was a big deal. I would have absolutely done anything for that in high
school/undergrad. Pondering that too much makes me sound old, though, haha
e.g. kids have it so good these days. The point is that, they don't. There
are still huge disparities in equitable access to the most basic tenants of
mathematics education, but it is absolutely getting better, and noticeably
so, which is amazing and awesome.

Take care,
Sina

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://secure-web.cisco.com/19n1e2Jbkz42iDH-5Pdoceh13su44yrRxguReza8A2BJrnx
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PQjDsT-wYyKTaOe5NAhV9b_kNzWjCjMMf_iMMbX7rs8g/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
Twitter: @SinaBahram
Personal Website:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1U2YwX0bDR_z5hbNqh-SwwcaIAvqXblSjXFzJsl5I8YLZs4
-d9hX9PRTgv6Ku2pdEBDTOYFMvj5WwtW9bXw4_BXCpqBpIWJB65qDZWpF75BfqZJE4-JCmxuYJww
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F%2Fwww.sinabahram.com

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:11 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Please verify your markup is correct. I just tested equations on this page
using VO + Safari on my iPhone. Works great. My sighted colleague confirmed
full screen display of equations and terms.

https://support.freedomscientific.com/content/html/jawshq/MathML-Samples.htm
l

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 4:41 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

EXTERNAL

Yes, I've tried it with Safari and Voiceover.  I get an javascript error
just opening the file in Safari.

I appreciate everyone's advice and help!  I am still learning so many
things.

-Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 2:38 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Sina, well said. I agree 100%.

Susan, have you tried viewing your MathML  in Safari on iOS using VoiceOver?
I haven't tested it in some time. However, in the past it had decent
braille/speech support and it also displays the equation, individual terms,
etc full screen. It's a really nice feature for users with low vision.

The video in this blog post shows how to access MathML in an iBook. However,
the behavior is the same in Safari.

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1pfRZpLyxwF0kR3bPQ2ndLOypWMTbxeHH6C7vbxk19sGe0SIABYm2T1gWuUnGF-
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TG2Upt4bcaNH24inaBiKGhJrxP1Q%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.c
om/1bw1vkua2jlaga0_QV-IuO6yz0bodC4m9lmNpZjhCZ9YzoNgLnii7A8NKZhJ71A6LlvkeSjXX
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SLRG5wZX5GvT7nMgTebdQrxZW0iNP1krJLkXzsOVmlbeFO8LgXVtwB-JOUoT1BsUFt8PB7SeVxaY
pcevHR1iq79lk0S3zBu-aJmJ33gNb6r0n3zUDe-r78xILnIB4GrkEnJ9M9SE9ctUnth9NmIM5E41
Mrqp2mc-BUQnv2vwcmo2rl3dxXviCzZTRFe8hPdksnVl2jIUY86OWLgEpvupV_R5vp9YM73LfvXN
VHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%
252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a
mp;data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%7C
b1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&sdata=xNs9
u4aUi94UqoSc3ZJ1GytTKMzedBsGVeFifM78IKE%3D&reserved=0

Hope that helps,

Ed

p.s. If he's low vision and he refuses to use a screen reader, I would be
willing to bet his reading rate is very slow. I'm on a mission to help all
students with VIB increase their reading rate to ~600 words per minute.
Please refer him to my blog series on this topic:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1cSF4MiqJn2-ha0xenuWeZJslZ_rxhwN5F_OgCT4hre2rIqlkNKViddHgqIerU8
fql_ZBNcxs8RRFYUpRLa5jxdwfb0inKMuIL9CkC-x1AtGOK8dASDCEt6_Z5A6LDUZwEGpflj_maG
BxwNLQwqMwKkZwiDyHg59L2h3K3a1v0VA3f4QOIcsO6V1S1EyWTMx7CLTu2yDVnOzH0HU1yIqecK
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eQvNcqumN0V808AeTx-zeKKV6RRg%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.c
om/1bw1vkua2jlaga0_QV-IuO6yz0bodC4m9lmNpZjhCZ9YzoNgLnii7A8NKZhJ71A6LlvkeSjXX
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VHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%
252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-teach-your-students-read-600-words-minute---
part-1&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388
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ata=iCsFFzdaqxMSvmu7UaK%2BYGHAgTu0xr%2BPTl1CXDtA7B0%3D&reserved=0

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:46 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

EXTERNAL

Susan,

It's not fair, but sometimes we need to use the right tool for the job.

Currently, a Mac is simply the wrong tool for reading and exploring
mathematics. Your student needs to understand this. Is the resistance from a
lack of understanding, a resistance to change, or something else? They may
be asked to learn different platforms in an eventual job as well, so they
should start now when they arguably have more free-time and resources to
help them, such as yourself.

They can do their email, games, and whatever else they like on their Mac,
but Windows provides you NVDA, and NVDA+MathPlayer gets you excellent speech
and Braille for the mathematics encoded as you have described.

They don't even need to change their hardware, necessarily, as they could
run Windows inside of a VM on their Mac, thereby taking advantage of both
worlds.

If they are unwilling to change, then I wish you both luck, and know that
you can't always convince folks to use the right solution, even when you try
all sorts of rational and emotional arguments. Try not to take that too
hard, as it's out of your control.

Thanks for what you do, by the way, it makes a huge impact in people's
lives.

Take care,

Sina

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%
7Cb1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&sdata=BF
rEcpmsIyoFBT4TXxb9vQkgZLI4LjPExfvnESCYqxQ%3D&reserved=0

Twitter: @SinaBahram

Personal Website:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinaba
hram.com&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d73
88af0e1%7Cb1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&
sdata=zGX%2Bbda4ghSlAj3%2BqAA%2BMLWg1x4HD%2BiFMC5CYsWSHGw%3D&reserved=0

-----Original Message-----

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM

To: blindmath at nfbnet.org

Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>

Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post, and
have learned a lot.  I'm an alternate format provider for students at the
University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to help
my student.

He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to move
to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader.  He has familiarity with
Voiceover on his Mac.  He has some vision and has gotten through math in the
past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college career where
this is just not going to be enough.

I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows
machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac.  I've
tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.

I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try to
open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is missing),
I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype.  Nothing is working.  I
can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to anything but
"all" or "some" but no fine tuning.  So while it reads the math it puts in a
lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and doesn't read the
basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some."  I am creating all files in
Word with Mathtype on a PC.

Any suggestions for me and my student?

Susan Kelmer

Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services University
of Colorado Boulder

303-735-4836

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