[BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Bert Van Landeghem
b.vanlandeghem at sheffield.ac.uk
Thu Jan 30 12:24:45 UTC 2020
Dear Elizabeth,
I don't know what programme of study you are taking and what the learning
objectives of your module or of the overall programme are. But sometimes
it can be very convenient to be able to generate graphical output even if
you cannot see it yourself. Maybe you can discuss the issue with your
lecturer(s) and investigate whether it is worth using an alternative
software programme to do the task. After all, people who do data analysis
on a day-to-day basis do in my experience not use Excel. While Excel is
nice to create spreadsheets, other software packages such as R, SAS or
Stata are more suitable for statistical work and data handling. Hence,
depending on your programme of study and aspirations, learning a different
package now might pay off in the near future when you take it to the next
level. Apart from creating the histogram, you can also look into which
summary statistics you can produce which you can easily access and which
will give you the same information as the graphical representation. Once
you have the data ready it is generally straightforward to create these
different types of output.
Best wishes,
Bert
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools (Elizabeth Mohnke)
2. Re: Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
(Godfrey, Jonathan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:40:10 +0000
From: Elizabeth Mohnke <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Message-ID:
<BN8PR03MB4930F52B2300E82E2729F667BA050 at BN8PR03MB4930.namprd03.prod.outloo
k.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Jonathan,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my email. It is rather
disheartening to hear that the data analysis tools add-on in Excel are not
accessible, and there is nothing that can be done to make any of the items
in this add-on accessible.
There are other items or tools we will be using in the data analysis tools
throughout the semester. I was hoping that I would find a way to be able
to participate as a student in the completion of these various
assignments. However, if my reader is simply reading through the
directions and doing all the work for me by following these instructions,
then what role am I playing as a student in the completion of these
various assignments?
I can understand your analogy of baking a cake verses buying a cake.
However, I am not quite sure how applical this analogy is to me as a
student. If as a student I need to complete an assignment, or write a term
paper, or take a quiz, then it definetly does matter how I go about
completing these tasks. If I allow someone else to do these things for me
then it is considered cheating.
Again, it is really disheartening and frustrating that there is nothing
that can be done to make the data analysis tools add-on in Excel
accessible. I thought Excel was a rather accessible program. But
apparently I was wrong, and now this is just another accessibility
challenge I need to figure out while maintaining academic honesty.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 12:28 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Hello Elizabeth,
I find your desire to work independently quite commendable.
I would argue that if you are in the driving seat it doesn't really matter
whose hand is clicking the mouse. The point is that this exercise is
teaching you something about histograms and the way they look. Excel is
just being used to make you undertake a set of tasks manually using a
digital tool. Other software options would make the histogram correctly
with a single command, but using that software then means you discuss the
appearance of a histogram once it is completed.
I'd liken the difference to buying a cake from a bakery as against baking
one at home by starting with the ingredients. You start with a desire for
cake and all going well, you get to eat cake. The question is, was all
that work doing the measuring and mixing really worth it? You could read
about how to make a cake; you could even watch a cooking show to learn how
a cake is made.
The designers of the course you are taking have decided that you need to
get your hands dirty. I'm not going to argue their pedagogical choices,
but let's just say that I have made it very clear to my colleagues that I
will not teach students how to do statistics using the wrong tools,
notably Excel.
As you have discovered, Excel does not offer a sensible way for a blind
person to make a histogram. The set of tasks you must undertake are
extremely difficult to undertake using a screen reader, and there is
practically no way to know if the outcome is really what you were hoping
for. There are bound to be more tasks that are equally impossible or
burdensome to think about though. You cannot afford to spend six hours on
a task that your classmates get done in six minutes, and on the
assumption that the staff teaching your course are decent people, they'll
agree.
I do think that you will need to lean on the course teaching group for
assistance. They are asking for something unreasonable. I do suggest that
you demonstrate what can and cannot be done using a screen reader to show
them why you've had to invest so much time thus far. I'd also then ask
them to show you how they would complete the tasks they are asking you to
do without touching their mouse. You'll have to do that diplomatically
though, whereas I get to be much more direct as an equal living thousands
of miles away!
Best of luck,
Jonathan
---
A. Jonathan R. Godfrey PhD, MInfSc, BSc, BBS.
Senior Lecturer in Statistics
School of Fundamental Sciences, Massey University Palmerston North, New
Zealand
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Mohnke via BlindMath
Sent: Wednesday, 29 January 2020 3:26 AM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org; nfbcs at nfbnet.org
Cc: Elizabeth Mohnke <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
Subject: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Hello All,
I am currently enrolled in a statistics class that uses the data analysis
tools in Microsoft Excel. However, I am having a difficult time figuring
out how to use the data analysis tools in Microsoft Excel.
Our first Excel project assignment was to create a histogram using the
data analysis tools. I have spent about six hours trying to complete this
assignment without much success.
I am using a laptop running Windows 10 with Excel 2016. I have tried using
the data analysis tools to create a histogram with both JAWS 2019 and
NVDA without any success.
I also tried using my old desktop computer running Windows 7 and Office
2013 with an older version of JAWS. It looks as though I may have been
able to complete the steps for creating a histogram through the data
analysis tools, but I am only able to see it as part of the Excel
worksheet in colums and rows. So I have no idea if it actually shows up
visually as a histogram. And it does not appear as though I have the
ability to edit any of the labels or close the gaps between the bars in
the historgram as described in a class video.
Does anyone know if it is possible to independently use the data analysis
tools in Microsoft Excel without any sighted assistance? Do the data
analysis tools not work as well with a screen reader in Office 2016
compared to Office 2013? If I need to use sighted assistance to complete
my Excel project assignments using the data analysis tools, how would I go
about doing this in a way that does not feel like the sighted person is
doing all the work for me?
Ideally I would like to be able to find a way to complete my Excel project
assignments for my statistics class on my own. However, the amount of time
I am spending trying to figure this out is simply not sustainable for the
rest of the semester. So any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 02:39:34 +0000
From: "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Message-ID:
<SYBPR01MB50013BA9765982A118543C7893040 at SYBPR01MB5001.ausprd01.prod.outloo
k.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Elizabeth,
Your frustration is justified; there are plenty of things you can do in
Excel, but it will be quite hit and miss until someone tries. I argue that
the person who tries should not be you though.
The staff for your course made the software choice. It is up to them to
assure you that what they are asking of you is actually possible. If (more
likely when) it isn't, it is those same staff who must take the
responsibility to make sure they provide a substitute way of achieving the
same learning outcomes as expected of your classmates.
I'd be asking the staff what they are hoping you will achieve. The access
to the software is no different to the access issues around learning
material. If they want to be sure that you understand how a histogram is
constructed, then perhaps they need to modify the assessment so that it
can be proven that you know what has to happen for a histogram to be made.
Assignment exercises are a useful tool for staff to employ to check this.
Imagine how long it would take them to have a one on one discussion with
every student. They don't have time so they demand that a histogram be
made. The discussion approach may well prove to be the reasonable
accommodation that works best for both of you.
I'm a little perplexed by the comment about your reader etc. If this human
is making sure you understand what needs to happen to make the graphs, and
at some stage you can prove that, then you are not cheating. You are
getting to the endpoint that matters using the tools that meet your needs.
I think some thinking about the long run outcome needs to be considered.
No one I've met who considers themselves to be a statistician would ever
construct a histogram using a process that involved making the wrong graph
and modifying it as is required in Excel. We use proper statistical
software. As a blind person, the options for maximising independence in
the workflow are pretty limited. SAS and R. Practically everyone who knows
me knows my bias towards R as a better option. If I'm honest, I would have
to look up a suitable tutorial to make a histogram in SAS, but I can do it
in a few commands in R.
Just for the moment let's imagine you have a data file stored as a csv
file (easy to construct in Excel) with variables in columns and
observations in rows (usual format for all statistical software). In R, I
only have to type
MyData = read.csv("MyFile.csv")
hist(MyData$Variable1, main="My first histogram", xlab="something useful")
and I have a histogram that has used Variable1 from my data that was
originally stored in MyFile.csv; I've changed the default title and x axis
labels because I know the defaults are less than perfect.
If you want to know what that histogram looks like, then you could make
use of my add-on package called BrailleR (it would need to be installed).
You would add two things to the above commands.
Insert a line that says library(BrailleR) up front, and add VI(...) around
the last line so that it now reads
VI(hist(MyData$Variable1, main="My first histogram", xlab="something
useful"))
You would still get the histogram on screen to put in your assignment and
you'll also get something like:
This is a histogram, with the title: Histogram of Wind "Wind" is marked on
the x-axis.
Tick marks for the x-axis are at: 0, 5, 10, 15, and 20 There are a total
of 153 elements for this variable.
Tick marks for the y-axis are at: 0, 10, 20, and 30 It has 11 bins with
equal widths, starting at 0 and ending at 22 .
The mids and counts for the bins are:
mid = 1 count = 1
mid = 3 count = 4
mid = 5 count = 11
mid = 7 count = 38
mid = 9 count = 27
mid = 11 count = 38
mid = 13 count = 10
mid = 15 count = 17
mid = 17 count = 4
mid = 19 count = 1
mid = 21 count = 2
printed out for you in screen reader friendly text. I can tell that the
graph I wanted is therefore ready to put in my report.
There are also tools to get an interactive exploration tool that hosts
this graph and more descriptions than the above static block of text. That
can wait a bit as it requires the user to have an installation of R etc.
Anyway, my real point is that there are options that will give you greater
independence than is possible with Excel. The onus is on your teachers to
help you get to the learning outcomes for the course. Those staff also
need to know that better options exists. If they want to force you to use
the same software as the rest of the class then they need to help
formulate the plan that works for them and doesn't leave you feeling like
a cheat. If in fact, the use of superior software is allowed, then they
should also be ready to assist or find staff that will assist. No one
deserves to be left hung out to dry.
HTH
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Mohnke via BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, 30 January 2020 1:40 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Elizabeth Mohnke <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Hello Jonathan,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my email. It is rather
disheartening to hear that the data analysis tools add-on in Excel are not
accessible, and there is nothing that can be done to make any of the items
in this add-on accessible.
There are other items or tools we will be using in the data analysis tools
throughout the semester. I was hoping that I would find a way to be able
to participate as a student in the completion of these various
assignments. However, if my reader is simply reading through the
directions and doing all the work for me by following these instructions,
then what role am I playing as a student in the completion of these
various assignments?
I can understand your analogy of baking a cake verses buying a cake.
However, I am not quite sure how applical this analogy is to me as a
student. If as a student I need to complete an assignment, or write a term
paper, or take a quiz, then it definetly does matter how I go about
completing these tasks. If I allow someone else to do these things for me
then it is considered cheating.
Again, it is really disheartening and frustrating that there is nothing
that can be done to make the data analysis tools add-on in Excel
accessible. I thought Excel was a rather accessible program. But
apparently I was wrong, and now this is just another accessibility
challenge I need to figure out while maintaining academic honesty.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 12:28 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Hello Elizabeth,
I find your desire to work independently quite commendable.
I would argue that if you are in the driving seat it doesn't really matter
whose hand is clicking the mouse. The point is that this exercise is
teaching you something about histograms and the way they look. Excel is
just being used to make you undertake a set of tasks manually using a
digital tool. Other software options would make the histogram correctly
with a single command, but using that software then means you discuss the
appearance of a histogram once it is completed.
I'd liken the difference to buying a cake from a bakery as against baking
one at home by starting with the ingredients. You start with a desire for
cake and all going well, you get to eat cake. The question is, was all
that work doing the measuring and mixing really worth it? You could read
about how to make a cake; you could even watch a cooking show to learn how
a cake is made.
The designers of the course you are taking have decided that you need to
get your hands dirty. I'm not going to argue their pedagogical choices,
but let's just say that I have made it very clear to my colleagues that I
will not teach students how to do statistics using the wrong tools,
notably Excel.
As you have discovered, Excel does not offer a sensible way for a blind
person to make a histogram. The set of tasks you must undertake are
extremely difficult to undertake using a screen reader, and there is
practically no way to know if the outcome is really what you were hoping
for. There are bound to be more tasks that are equally impossible or
burdensome to think about though. You cannot afford to spend six hours on
a task that your classmates get done in six minutes, and on the
assumption that the staff teaching your course are decent people, they'll
agree.
I do think that you will need to lean on the course teaching group for
assistance. They are asking for something unreasonable. I do suggest that
you demonstrate what can and cannot be done using a screen reader to show
them why you've had to invest so much time thus far. I'd also then ask
them to show you how they would complete the tasks they are asking you to
do without touching their mouse. You'll have to do that diplomatically
though, whereas I get to be much more direct as an equal living thousands
of miles away!
Best of luck,
Jonathan
---
A. Jonathan R. Godfrey PhD, MInfSc, BSc, BBS.
Senior Lecturer in Statistics
School of Fundamental Sciences, Massey University Palmerston North, New
Zealand
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Mohnke via BlindMath
Sent: Wednesday, 29 January 2020 3:26 AM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org; nfbcs at nfbnet.org
Cc: Elizabeth Mohnke <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
Subject: [BlindMath] Seeking Help with Excel Data Analysis Tools
Hello All,
I am currently enrolled in a statistics class that uses the data analysis
tools in Microsoft Excel. However, I am having a difficult time figuring
out how to use the data analysis tools in Microsoft Excel.
Our first Excel project assignment was to create a histogram using the
data analysis tools. I have spent about six hours trying to complete this
assignment without much success.
I am using a laptop running Windows 10 with Excel 2016. I have tried using
the data analysis tools to create a histogram with both JAWS 2019 and
NVDA without any success.
I also tried using my old desktop computer running Windows 7 and Office
2013 with an older version of JAWS. It looks as though I may have been
able to complete the steps for creating a histogram through the data
analysis tools, but I am only able to see it as part of the Excel
worksheet in colums and rows. So I have no idea if it actually shows up
visually as a histogram. And it does not appear as though I have the
ability to edit any of the labels or close the gaps between the bars in
the historgram as described in a class video.
Does anyone know if it is possible to independently use the data analysis
tools in Microsoft Excel without any sighted assistance? Do the data
analysis tools not work as well with a screen reader in Office 2016
compared to Office 2013? If I need to use sighted assistance to complete
my Excel project assignments using the data analysis tools, how would I go
about doing this in a way that does not feel like the sighted person is
doing all the work for me?
Ideally I would like to be able to find a way to complete my Excel project
assignments for my statistics class on my own. However, the amount of time
I am spending trying to figure this out is simply not sustainable for the
rest of the semester. So any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
_______________________________________________
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