[BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

Mon Feb 8 20:30:51 UTC 2021

Excellent comment.  

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Godfrey,
Jonathan via BlindMath
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 3:01 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to
7:30 UK time

I think the legal profewssion has a misguided understanding of the
protections the pdf ever offered them.

I don't know how many times I've had to deal with lawyers and pdf documents
pointing out to them that if someone wants to tamper, their protectionist
efforts are futile.

The one advantage of pdf is a legacy of print. Share a document via email
and no matter who prints it, everyone has the same layout, no matter how
unreadable that is for some of them.

My students love that they have control over the layout, especially the font
size and even the colour contrast if that is enabled.

In the end, is I the producer of the material who has primacy of
consideration or the consumers of it. I suggest that all business models tht
fail their consumers are doomed. Competition does make a difference and
digital tools are being developed all the time to serve the modernised
individual. Little effort gets put into consumders who are dwindling in
number, including tthose people who insist on the dead tree model.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh via
BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2021 8:40 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com>; Steve Jacobson
<steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to
7:30 UK time

PDF documents can be digitally signed to protect their content from
alteration - this is often used in legal documents. But I've never seen this
to be used for conference papers. So I don't think this is the reason.  I
believe the reason why they stick to PDF is partly historical, but the other
part is the fact that PDF looks exactly the same on every device, while the
same cannot be said regarding HTML.

On 2/8/2021 6:11 AM, Steve Jacobson via BlindMath wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
> Please excuse my ignorance, but I am not into HTML as deeply as you and
some others here.  Is there a way for an author to protect HTML documents in
a manner similar to PDF's to prevent easy alteration?  I recognize that
today, there are methods to alter PDF documents if one is intent on doing
so. but this is still one of the common reasons given to using PDF
documents.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Godfrey, 
> Jonathan via BlindMath
> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2021 11:14 PM
> To: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com>; Blind Math list for those 
> interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb
> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time
>
> Hello,
>
> I accept that some disciplines are still using the same approach to
publishing as they did in the late 20th century, and I totally get that
we'll continue to accept substandard service to get access to the things we
need.
>
> Use of pdf is a choice, and it is an inferior choice at present. ( 
> guess it always was really)
>
> Conference proceedings are often in pdf as the primary medium but that is
changing as people reduce their reliance on paper and go digital.
>
> The conferences I attend are Mostly) making their material suit the tools
being used by the attendees. That still includes the fuddy duddy people who
can't get by without killing a tree but increasingly, the need to adapt to
suit people running around with a large screen mobile or a small screen
laptop or tablet, none of which work well for an A4 format.
>
> Rather ironically, I do keep tabs on one very large conference that is all
about helping people and offering solutions for blind people. It offers all
of its proceedings in pdf because that is what Springer does at this time.
>
> In contrast, I read journal articles published by Wiley, Elsivier, and
Taylor & Francis in HTML and these publishers  also seem to be working their
way through their back catalogue at varying rates.
>
> Times are changing. The publishers offering the best in accessibility
today are delivering both HTML and pdf. They are making a choice to do it
this way, and it is a choice I am benefitting from.
>
> I can't stop people flogging their dead horses, but I can show people
there is a better way.
>
> If we don't pester the people who make decisions about their flawed
decisions and how they disadvantage us, they'll do nothing to change things
for us.
>
> In order to get things changed at conferences, I've made sure I'm
available to help the organisers. This includes being in charge of the book
of abstracts for one conference through to being the principal organiser of
another in late 2018.
>
> I'm now a member of the advisory group for all things diversity in the 
> R community. I get to add my two cents worth on quite a few things 
> relating to the needs of disabled people in general. I'd like to think 
> that the conferences for this community are a better option now for 
> blind attendees than they were when I first went along. (Fingers
> crossed)
>
> Jonathan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 February 2021 11:03 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb
> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time
>
> In my field - in Machine learning  - none of the major conferences
currently  offer papers in HTML format, nor in any other accessible format,
which poses a big problem for me. So while I wish they could publish papers
in HTML, for some reason this is not heppening. I don't mind latex either -
any accessibility  would be better than no accessibility. But so far not
much progress here.
>   >I suspect the way to get the accessibility tools into common use is to
make sure they are built into the system in such a way that no one has to do
anything to implement them.
> Publishers need PDF and they are never going to give it up. Adding HTML as
an alternative format is an extra hassle  to conference organizers, as well
as authors of papers. I suspect pushing them for HTML format is going to be
a very difficult task as well.
>
> On 2/6/2021 5:01 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I suspect the way to get the accessibility tools into common use is to
make sure they are built into the system in such a way that no one has to do
anything to implement them.
>>
>> At present, every access solution requires the author of the LaTeX (or
their editor) to do additional tasks. The more onerous these tasks are, the
less likely we will have success. On top of that, if the "solutions" turn
out not to be solutions but instead just create other problems, then they
are doomed.
>>
>> This is why I favour an HTML solution. Evidence suggests that the main
producers of massive quantities of print are also realising that HTML offers
an easier way to deliver content to the sighted world, let alone the
relatively trivial audience of mathematically competent blind people. Most
publishers now use HTML in addition to the pdf version of journal articles,
and in my experience, an increasing number are using either MathML or
MathJax.
>>
>> We still have tens of thousands of printed pages that may not see the
light of HTML day. I believe that this is becoming less and less of an issue
except for the people who need to read that archive, being mostly
postgraduate students and academics.
>>
>> The availability of books, particularly textbooks, in HTML will pose an
ongoing problem. I am somewhat fortunate that the best resources in my field
are now being produced in pdf for the one-off thing called the print
edition, but also in a living form freely available in HTML.
>>
>> The last time I needed something that wasn't in one of these living
books, the Wikipedia pages on the subject were there to rescue me. Again,
they're in HTML with the original source code now producing screen reader
friendly formulae. Ten years ago, these same pages were offering up these
same formulae in image formats and the original LaTeX source as the alt tag.
>>
>> I did put energy into finding the tools to help me build in the access I
wanted from documents I had written up using LaTeX. I've given up developing
pretty much every document I ever started in LaTeX and moved everything over
to an HTML solution because I'm onto a winner with HTML and I've wasted
enough energy on losers already.
>>
>> The thing that continues to frustrate me is the persistent belief that
presenting a pdf document with accessibility features is the desired
outcome. I think people want access to the content, not the pain that comes
with the inadequacies of the best pdf has to offer today. My sighted
students moan about the staff that give them pdf documents. "We can't find
anything", "There are too many documents to pick from", "it doesn't look
good on my tablet/phone", etc.
>>
>> So, I ask who or what is it that we are wanting to change?
>>
>> Please note, I'm not anti-LaTeX. There are plenty of tools that will turn
many LaTeX documents into quite useful HTML. None of them is perfect though.
I used TeX4HT more than anything else because it made nice mathematical
content. My use of it was absolutely useless when it came time to decent
labelling of images but I was finding a (complicated) work around. That just
got too onerous to continue with though, especially once I found that it was
all sorted out by markdown.
>>
>> Jonathan G
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tony 
>> Malykh via BlindMath
>> Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2021 1:07 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb
>> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time
>>
>> I did my own little investigation into this a while ago. Here is my
understanding. I'll be happy if anyone corrects me if any of my points are
not valid.
>> 1. Tex was invented like in  1960s - and they had no idea about
accessibility back then. Tex is really just the engine, and there are tons
of packages written on top of that engine. Neither the engine, nor the
packages were written with accessibility in mind.
>> 2. There appear to have been some efforts to introduce Tex PDF
accessibility. For example, see:
>>        *
>>
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftex.stackex
change.com%2Fquestions%2F550511%2Fwhat-is-the-best-package-for-accessibility
-tagging%2F550523%23550523&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb2443ccae3808d8cbf
08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637483581284306793%7CUnkn
own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
I6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5%2Bl%2BiWB0n02ZSVJER%2B6xf6z4Os06IwSyqZ1NS24d4Sc%
3D&reserved=0
>>        *
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%
2Fkarel-brinda%2Ftex-accessibility&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb2443ccae3
808d8cbf08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63748358128430679
3%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW
wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=DvAuk%2FwzNhd8N2rAMT2ahgunuPf8IBM%2FjrsNf1
8CQ0w%3D&reserved=0
>>        *
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgith
>> ub.com%2Fintegr-abile%2Faxessibility&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb
>> 2443ccae3808d8cbf08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6
>> 37483581284306793%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo
>> iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OQbhyxXPTJpD
>> FHs9PqKzrBBt9fdVdZyFW0ML35TfgP4%3D&reserved=0
>> However, these packages seem to suffer from one common problem: they
break visual layout  except for the simplest cases. That's the reason why
conferences don't use this package.
>> 3. In order to have a working accessibility Latex package, it appears
that you need to make changes to nearly every otehr Latex package to make it
to work with accessibility package. The number of tex packages that are
widely used is enormous, therefore therethere's enormous amount of work to
be done with no one to pay for, and let's be honest - with marginal benefits
- there are not too many blind people in the world willing to read math
papers.
>> 4. I also stumbled upon the discussion with one of ML conference
organizers (couldn't find a link now), and it seems like they were willing
to work in that direction, that is enforce all the papers to be accessible,
as long as there is a working accessibility package.
>> So my conclusion was that Latex PDF accessibility is not likely to be a
reality in the nearby future. Even if NFB or any other blindness-related
group forms an advocacy group to push for accessible Latex PDFs, it still
feels unlikely  that widespread accessibility could be achieved, primarily
becuase of complexity of the system.
>> Too bad. Again, hope someone can correct me.
>> --Tony
>>
>> On 2/6/2021 7:10 AM, Petr Pařízek via BlindMath wrote:
>>> Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> <<<<<
>>>
>>> Many teachers use LaTeX for course materials. I'd like to have 
>>> real-world
>>>
>>>> examples of LaTeX math, and accessibility problems and solutions.
>>>> Please send to this list or to me privately as you wish.
>>> Recently, someone has told me that out of the many existing TeX to 
>>> PDF converters out there, there doesn't seem to be such one that 
>>> would be able to label the math expressions with corresponding 
>>> alternative text in the PDF document. Sadly, I'm unable to verify 
>>> whether this is indeed the case or whether labeling graphics with 
>>> alternative text is somehow problematic in PDF documents. If 
>>> alternative text is no problem in formats like HTML, then I have no 
>>> idea why it should be a problem in PDF. And if it is not a question 
>>> of issues with alternative text itself, then I wonder why the 
>>> converters can't use it for labeling the math expressions properly 
>>> (which are actually stored as graphics). Honestly, I'd love to know 
>>> myself what the answer to the question is but I don't know anyone 
>>> who knows enough both about the actual PDF format and about the 
>>> available TeX to PDF converters and who could indeed give me the answer.
>>>
>>> Petr
>>>
>>>
>>>
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