[BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

Wed Feb 10 18:34:40 UTC 2021

Hello,

I applaud all attempts to improve access to information, no matter which context. I also deplore the use (and implied usefulness) of pdf in its current form.

The TeX community needs to continue this work because it is losing the competitive edge it once had. I don't see that that our discussion about reality of our current options as blind people should derail it; it might highlight how important it is to get a better outcome in pdf.

One of the reasons I was employable twenty years ago was because I was so proficient in LaTeX. My skills might be a little rusty, but they haven't evaporated entirely.

Over the last ten years though, I have gone from being someone who has had to rely on sighted support to get my job done (perhaps 5 hours per week) to someone who now  needs perhaps only 30 minutes per week which is about what any of my colleagues use from the secretarial pool. That transformation is through switching to tools that result in me having much greater independence. Reliance on LaTeX and pdf was costing me in ways I didn't understand at the time.

If access had existed in LaTeX documents for all of that time, I would not have needed to go looking for alternatives. I spent years fighting the lack of sufficient access, and now I've spent years thriving with the increased independence I now have.

Without those alternatives though, I would be much less competitive in seeking employment in my chosen field today. I am concerned for the up and coming blind person wanting an education in STEM which follows onto a fulfilling career, and that motivates me to make sure all blind people are made aware that they have choices today. Right now, that choice is very easy for me, but I love the idea of that choice becoming much more difficult once LaTeX catches up.

When a vegetarian goes into a restaurant and says, "I'll have the vegetarian option please", did they have a choice? Yes and no. They could choose to go hungry, or choose the single option on offer. If I was vegetarian, I'd  choose to go to a different restaurant.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of White, Jason J via BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2021 4:33 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: White, Jason J <jjwhite at ets.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

One concern that I have with this discussion is that it could derail the LaTeX developers' project to integrate preservation of document structure into the core of LaTex. Although generating tagged PDF is their immediate objective, they note that capturing and preserving document structure would benefit the generation of other output formats, such as HTML (which most of us care more about than tagged PDF).

I would still wish that work to proceed. While I appreciate that Markdown and other "simpler" formats meet the needs of some, they don't currently meet my needs - and I don't think I am alone in that respect. I certainly don't wish to undermine the funded project that is currently underway, especially if it would improve support for HTML generation ultimately (and hence EPUB generation). Currently, if I want to generate HTML from LaTeX, I need to be somewhat careful which packages I use. The proposed project could improve this situation markedly.

-----Original Message-----

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Vincent Martin via BlindMath

Sent: Monday, 8 February 2021 15:31

To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

Cc: vincentfmartin2020 at gmail.com<mailto:vincentfmartin2020 at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

Excellent comment.

-----Original Message-----

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath

Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 3:01 PM

To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>

Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to

7:30 UK time

I think the legal profewssion has a misguided understanding of the protections the pdf ever offered them.

I don't know how many times I've had to deal with lawyers and pdf documents pointing out to them that if someone wants to tamper, their protectionist efforts are futile.

The one advantage of pdf is a legacy of print. Share a document via email and no matter who prints it, everyone has the same layout, no matter how unreadable that is for some of them.

My students love that they have control over the layout, especially the font size and even the colour contrast if that is enabled.

In the end, is I the producer of the material who has primacy of consideration or the consumers of it. I suggest that all business models tht fail their consumers are doomed. Competition does make a difference and digital tools are being developed all the time to serve the modernised individual. Little effort gets put into consumders who are dwindling in number, including tthose people who insist on the dead tree model.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh via BlindMath

Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2021 8:40 AM

To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

Cc: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com<mailto:anton.malykh at gmail.com>>; Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at outlook.com<mailto:steve.jacobson at outlook.com>>

Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb 6:30 to

7:30 UK time

PDF documents can be digitally signed to protect their content from alteration - this is often used in legal documents. But I've never seen this to be used for conference papers. So I don't think this is the reason.  I believe the reason why they stick to PDF is partly historical, but the other part is the fact that PDF looks exactly the same on every device, while the same cannot be said regarding HTML.

On 2/8/2021 6:11 AM, Steve Jacobson via BlindMath wrote:

> Jonathan,

>

> Please excuse my ignorance, but I am not into HTML as deeply as you

> and

some others here.  Is there a way for an author to protect HTML documents in a manner similar to PDF's to prevent easy alteration?  I recognize that today, there are methods to alter PDF documents if one is intent on doing so. but this is still one of the common reasons given to using PDF documents.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Steve Jacobson

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Godfrey,

> Jonathan via BlindMath

> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2021 11:14 PM

> To: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com<mailto:anton.malykh at gmail.com>>; Blind Math list for those

> interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

> Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>

> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb

> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

>

> Hello,

>

> I accept that some disciplines are still using the same approach to

publishing as they did in the late 20th century, and I totally get that we'll continue to accept substandard service to get access to the things we need.

>

> Use of pdf is a choice, and it is an inferior choice at present. (

> guess it always was really)

>

> Conference proceedings are often in pdf as the primary medium but that

> is

changing as people reduce their reliance on paper and go digital.

>

> The conferences I attend are Mostly) making their material suit the

> tools

being used by the attendees. That still includes the fuddy duddy people who can't get by without killing a tree but increasingly, the need to adapt to suit people running around with a large screen mobile or a small screen laptop or tablet, none of which work well for an A4 format.

>

> Rather ironically, I do keep tabs on one very large conference that is

> all

about helping people and offering solutions for blind people. It offers all of its proceedings in pdf because that is what Springer does at this time.

>

> In contrast, I read journal articles published by Wiley, Elsivier, and

Taylor & Francis in HTML and these publishers  also seem to be working their way through their back catalogue at varying rates.

>

> Times are changing. The publishers offering the best in accessibility

today are delivering both HTML and pdf. They are making a choice to do it this way, and it is a choice I am benefitting from.

>

> I can't stop people flogging their dead horses, but I can show people

there is a better way.

>

> If we don't pester the people who make decisions about their flawed

decisions and how they disadvantage us, they'll do nothing to change things for us.

>

> In order to get things changed at conferences, I've made sure I'm

available to help the organisers. This includes being in charge of the book of abstracts for one conference through to being the principal organiser of another in late 2018.

>

> I'm now a member of the advisory group for all things diversity in the

> R community. I get to add my two cents worth on quite a few things

> relating to the needs of disabled people in general. I'd like to think

> that the conferences for this community are a better option now for

> blind attendees than they were when I first went along. (Fingers

> crossed)

>

> Jonathan

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com<mailto:anton.malykh at gmail.com>>

> Sent: Monday, 8 February 2021 11:03 AM

> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics

> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

> Cc: Godfrey, Jonathan <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz<mailto:A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>>

> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb

> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

>

> In my field - in Machine learning  - none of the major conferences

currently  offer papers in HTML format, nor in any other accessible format, which poses a big problem for me. So while I wish they could publish papers in HTML, for some reason this is not heppening. I don't mind latex either - any accessibility  would be better than no accessibility. But so far not much progress here.

>   >I suspect the way to get the accessibility tools into common use is

> to

make sure they are built into the system in such a way that no one has to do anything to implement them.

> Publishers need PDF and they are never going to give it up. Adding

> HTML as

an alternative format is an extra hassle  to conference organizers, as well as authors of papers. I suspect pushing them for HTML format is going to be a very difficult task as well.

>

> On 2/6/2021 5:01 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath wrote:

>> Hello,

>>

>> I suspect the way to get the accessibility tools into common use is

>> to

make sure they are built into the system in such a way that no one has to do anything to implement them.

>>

>> At present, every access solution requires the author of the LaTeX

>> (or

their editor) to do additional tasks. The more onerous these tasks are, the less likely we will have success. On top of that, if the "solutions" turn out not to be solutions but instead just create other problems, then they are doomed.

>>

>> This is why I favour an HTML solution. Evidence suggests that the

>> main

producers of massive quantities of print are also realising that HTML offers an easier way to deliver content to the sighted world, let alone the relatively trivial audience of mathematically competent blind people. Most publishers now use HTML in addition to the pdf version of journal articles, and in my experience, an increasing number are using either MathML or MathJax.

>>

>> We still have tens of thousands of printed pages that may not see the

light of HTML day. I believe that this is becoming less and less of an issue except for the people who need to read that archive, being mostly postgraduate students and academics.

>>

>> The availability of books, particularly textbooks, in HTML will pose

>> an

ongoing problem. I am somewhat fortunate that the best resources in my field are now being produced in pdf for the one-off thing called the print edition, but also in a living form freely available in HTML.

>>

>> The last time I needed something that wasn't in one of these living

books, the Wikipedia pages on the subject were there to rescue me. Again, they're in HTML with the original source code now producing screen reader friendly formulae. Ten years ago, these same pages were offering up these same formulae in image formats and the original LaTeX source as the alt tag.

>>

>> I did put energy into finding the tools to help me build in the

>> access I

wanted from documents I had written up using LaTeX. I've given up developing pretty much every document I ever started in LaTeX and moved everything over to an HTML solution because I'm onto a winner with HTML and I've wasted enough energy on losers already.

>>

>> The thing that continues to frustrate me is the persistent belief

>> that

presenting a pdf document with accessibility features is the desired outcome. I think people want access to the content, not the pain that comes with the inadequacies of the best pdf has to offer today. My sighted students moan about the staff that give them pdf documents. "We can't find anything", "There are too many documents to pick from", "it doesn't look good on my tablet/phone", etc.

>>

>> So, I ask who or what is it that we are wanting to change?

>>

>> Please note, I'm not anti-LaTeX. There are plenty of tools that will

>> turn

many LaTeX documents into quite useful HTML. None of them is perfect though.

I used TeX4HT more than anything else because it made nice mathematical content. My use of it was absolutely useless when it came time to decent labelling of images but I was finding a (complicated) work around. That just got too onerous to continue with though, especially once I found that it was all sorted out by markdown.

>>

>> Jonathan G

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Tony

>> Malykh via BlindMath

>> Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2021 1:07 PM

>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics

>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

>> Cc: Tony Malykh <anton.malykh at gmail.com<mailto:anton.malykh at gmail.com>>

>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Zoom meeting on accessible math: Thu 11 Feb

>> 6:30 to 7:30 UK time

>>

>> I did my own little investigation into this a while ago. Here is my

understanding. I'll be happy if anyone corrects me if any of my points are not valid.

>> 1. Tex was invented like in  1960s - and they had no idea about

accessibility back then. Tex is really just the engine, and there are tons of packages written on top of that engine. Neither the engine, nor the packages were written with accessibility in mind.

>> 2. There appear to have been some efforts to introduce Tex PDF

accessibility. For example, see:

>>        *

>>

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftex.stackex

change.com%2Fquestions%2F550511%2Fwhat-is-the-best-package-for-accessibility

-tagging%2F550523%23550523&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb2443ccae3808d8cbf

08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637483581284306793%7CUnkn

own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC

I6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5%2Bl%2BiWB0n02ZSVJER%2B6xf6z4Os06IwSyqZ1NS24d4Sc%

3D&reserved=0

>>        *

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%25

2Fkarel-brinda%2Ftex-accessibility&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb2443ccae3

808d8cbf08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63748358128430679

3%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW

wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=DvAuk%2FwzNhd8N2rAMT2ahgunuPf8IBM%2FjrsNf1

8CQ0w%3D&reserved=0

>>        *

>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgith

>> ub.com%2Fintegr-abile%2Faxessibility&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9ea7900dbb

>> 2443ccae3808d8cbf08be9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6

>> 37483581284306793%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo

>> iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OQbhyxXPTJpD

>> FHs9PqKzrBBt9fdVdZyFW0ML35TfgP4%3D&reserved=0

>> However, these packages seem to suffer from one common problem: they

break visual layout  except for the simplest cases. That's the reason why conferences don't use this package.

>> 3. In order to have a working accessibility Latex package, it appears

that you need to make changes to nearly every otehr Latex package to make it to work with accessibility package. The number of tex packages that are widely used is enormous, therefore therethere's enormous amount of work to be done with no one to pay for, and let's be honest - with marginal benefits

- there are not too many blind people in the world willing to read math papers.

>> 4. I also stumbled upon the discussion with one of ML conference

organizers (couldn't find a link now), and it seems like they were willing to work in that direction, that is enforce all the papers to be accessible, as long as there is a working accessibility package.

>> So my conclusion was that Latex PDF accessibility is not likely to be

>> a

reality in the nearby future. Even if NFB or any other blindness-related group forms an advocacy group to push for accessible Latex PDFs, it still feels unlikely  that widespread accessibility could be achieved, primarily becuase of complexity of the system.

>> Too bad. Again, hope someone can correct me.

>> --Tony

>>

>> On 2/6/2021 7:10 AM, Petr Pařízek via BlindMath wrote:

>>> Jonathan wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>> <<<<<

>>>

>>> Many teachers use LaTeX for course materials. I'd like to have

>>> real-world

>>>

>>>> examples of LaTeX math, and accessibility problems and solutions.

>>>> Please send to this list or to me privately as you wish.

>>> Recently, someone has told me that out of the many existing TeX to

>>> PDF converters out there, there doesn't seem to be such one that

>>> would be able to label the math expressions with corresponding

>>> alternative text in the PDF document. Sadly, I'm unable to verify

>>> whether this is indeed the case or whether labeling graphics with

>>> alternative text is somehow problematic in PDF documents. If

>>> alternative text is no problem in formats like HTML, then I have no

>>> idea why it should be a problem in PDF. And if it is not a question

>>> of issues with alternative text itself, then I wonder why the

>>> converters can't use it for labeling the math expressions properly

>>> (which are actually stored as graphics). Honestly, I'd love to know

>>> myself what the answer to the question is but I don't know anyone

>>> who knows enough both about the actual PDF format and about the

>>> available TeX to PDF converters and who could indeed give me the answer.

>>>

>>> Petr

>>>

>>>

>>>

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