[BlindMath] BlindMath Digest, Vol 176, Issue 2
John Rose
rosej at tsbvi.edu
Fri Mar 5 14:52:06 UTC 2021
Hi Susan,
Thank you for your contribution to this thread, and thanks to UofC Boulder
for excellent accessibility resources online.
In my work, I create materials from curriculum and have found that
elementary and some secondary math is relatively easy yet time consuming,
while more complex math is challenging and extremely time consuming.
I wonder if there is a committee in existence (e.g., AER, NFB) that could
write a position paper and begin a lobbying effort. The issue of math
materials and the intransigence of publishers has been a challenge in our
field as long as I have been in it (12 years) and, I’m sure, longer. Does
anyone have any insight on how we as a community could move forward on
taking some action?
John Rose, M.A., M.Ed.
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
Short-Term Programs
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
512.206.9131
rosej at tsbvi.edu
@TSBVI_JohnRose <https://twitter.com/TSBVI_JohnRose>
John
On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 2:35 PM <blindmath-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Inaccessible math books (Michael Evers)
> 2. Re: Inaccessible math books (Sanchit Ghule)
> 3. Re: Inaccessible math books (David Farmer)
> 4. Re: Inaccessible math books (Susan Kelmer)
> 5. STEM Meeting Recording (Louis Maher)
> 6. Re: STEM Meeting Recording (Susan Osterhaus)
> 7. Re: Inaccessible math books (Sina Bahram)
> 8. Re: Inaccessible math books (Mike Gorse)
> 9. Re: Inaccessible math books (Nikita)
> 10. Re: Inaccessible math books (Susan Kelmer)
> 11. Re: Inaccessible math books (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 12. Re: Inaccessible math books (Susan Kelmer)
> 13. Re: Inaccessible math books (nspohn0 at gmail.com)
> 14. Re: Inaccessible math books (Nikita)
> 15. Re: Inaccessible math books (Susan Kelmer)
> 16. Re: Inaccessible math books (Sabra Ewing)
> 17. Re: Inaccessible math books (Sabra Ewing)
> 18. Re: Inaccessible math books (Sabra Ewing)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 08:53:32 -0600
> From: Michael Evers <michaelevers at southalabama.edu>
> To: Akashdeep Bansal <akashdeep.bansal4 at gmail.com>, Blind Math list
> for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID: <fd2e9f84226f9ac685ad597ab0c48ca1 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi,
>
> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Bookshare does not currently offer
> math textbooks in the MathML Format. Trying to find a vender with the
> expertise to perform transcription services for converting math textbooks
> into MathML is like pulling teeth. The only solution is for you to try to
> learn MathML and perform the conversions yourself.
> There are software programs that can do a lot of the work for you,
> but you
> will still have to go through all of the mathematical expressions to make
> sure that all of the transcriptions were performed correctly. That task in
> and of itself can take several months depending on how much time and human
> resources you have at your disposal. Most likely, converting these
> textbooks into MathML is nothing more than a pipe dream until this pandemic
> is over and venders make themselves available again.
> Good luck getting the textbook publishers to convert their
> materials into
> MathML for you. That task is even more impossible to accomplish, because
> they don't care. I know that I have tried getting textbooks converted into
> MathML for one of my engineering students and have not been able to find
> any
> venders willing or able to help my university at all. Every vender that I
> have reached out to, including UC Boulder and Georgia Tech Center for
> Instructional Design have all said they do not have the human resources to
> convert textbook materials into MathML, because of the COVID-19 pandemic,
> but if they have materials in their repositories, they would gladly let me
> have access to them. The problem is, my student's professors are requiring
> textbooks that are currently not in these vender's repositories. So, we're
> back to square one. Good luck trying to find these resources. Let us know
> how it works out.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Akashdeep Bansal <akashdeep.bansal4 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 1:20 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> You can check on Bookshare.
>
> I-Stem (http://www.istemai.com/) provides service for conversion of
> documents into accessible formats. We also fixes the bugs through manual
> corrections and can provide output in mml. Pls let me know if you are
> interested.
>
> On 3/1/21, Kellee Sanchez via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > Hello! We have a student in higher level math class, aerodynamics to
> > be exact, and the online book is not accessible. There are many people
> > working on a viable avenues to get the student their book before the
> > semester ends, but it is looking bleak. Does anyone have suggestions
> > how to get the book into MML? Also, what can I do when this occurs
> > again? Who can I contact? The book is Fundamentals of Aerodynamics 6th
> > ed. By JD Anderson. Thank you for any assistance you can give!
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindMath:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/akashdeep.bansa
> > l4%40gmail.com
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks and Regards
> Akashdeep Bansal
> Research Scholar (PhD)
> Amar Nath and Shashi Khosla School of Information Technology Indian
> Institute of Technology Delhi Hauz Khas, New Delhi 110016 INDIA
> web: http://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/~akashdeep/
> <http://web.iitd.ernet.in/~anz168049/>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 20:42:19 +0530
> From: Sanchit Ghule <sanchitjghule at gmail.com>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Akashdeep Bansal <akashdeep.bansal4 at gmail.com>, Michael Evers
> <michaelevers at southalabama.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <CAFLkcVOE=FPXzR8Po7=ww==
> g-+CmXcD1MMV18_NUDeb21bNezA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Ha Ha. Well said Michael.
> Asking book publisher for accessible material is like sweating for small
> stuff. And finally turned out that I have to have learn math ML. I wish I
> would have enough intelligence rather than depending on artificial one. May
> god shower GPL for me.
> Sanchit.
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Michael Evers via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Bookshare does not currently
> offer
> > math textbooks in the MathML Format. Trying to find a vender with the
> > expertise to perform transcription services for converting math textbooks
> > into MathML is like pulling teeth. The only solution is for you to try
> to
> > learn MathML and perform the conversions yourself.
> > There are software programs that can do a lot of the work for
> you,
> > but you
> > will still have to go through all of the mathematical expressions to make
> > sure that all of the transcriptions were performed correctly. That task
> in
> > and of itself can take several months depending on how much time and
> human
> > resources you have at your disposal. Most likely, converting these
> > textbooks into MathML is nothing more than a pipe dream until this
> pandemic
> > is over and venders make themselves available again.
> > Good luck getting the textbook publishers to convert their
> > materials into
> > MathML for you. That task is even more impossible to accomplish, because
> > they don't care. I know that I have tried getting textbooks converted
> into
> > MathML for one of my engineering students and have not been able to find
> > any
> > venders willing or able to help my university at all. Every vender that
> I
> > have reached out to, including UC Boulder and Georgia Tech Center for
> > Instructional Design have all said they do not have the human resources
> to
> > convert textbook materials into MathML, because of the COVID-19 pandemic,
> > but if they have materials in their repositories, they would gladly let
> me
> > have access to them. The problem is, my student's professors are
> requiring
> > textbooks that are currently not in these vender's repositories. So,
> we're
> > back to square one. Good luck trying to find these resources. Let us
> know
> > how it works out.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Akashdeep Bansal <akashdeep.bansal4 at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 1:20 AM
> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> >
> > You can check on Bookshare.
> >
> > I-Stem (http://www.istemai.com/) provides service for conversion of
> > documents into accessible formats. We also fixes the bugs through manual
> > corrections and can provide output in mml. Pls let me know if you are
> > interested.
> >
> > On 3/1/21, Kellee Sanchez via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > > Hello! We have a student in higher level math class, aerodynamics to
> > > be exact, and the online book is not accessible. There are many people
> > > working on a viable avenues to get the student their book before the
> > > semester ends, but it is looking bleak. Does anyone have suggestions
> > > how to get the book into MML? Also, what can I do when this occurs
> > > again? Who can I contact? The book is Fundamentals of Aerodynamics 6th
> > > ed. By JD Anderson. Thank you for any assistance you can give!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BlindMath mailing list
> > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > BlindMath:
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/akashdeep.bansa
> > > l4%40gmail.com
> > > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks and Regards
> > Akashdeep Bansal
> > Research Scholar (PhD)
> > Amar Nath and Shashi Khosla School of Information Technology Indian
> > Institute of Technology Delhi Hauz Khas, New Delhi 110016 INDIA
> > web: http://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/~akashdeep/
> > <http://web.iitd.ernet.in/~anz168049/>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindMath:
> >
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sanchitjghule%40gmail.com
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 10:26:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: David Farmer <farmer at aimath.org>
> To: Sanchit Ghule via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <alpine.LRH.2.21.2103011025320.30818 at li375-150.members.linode.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> Does one really need to learn MathML, or can one use MathJax
> to convert LaTeX math to MathML?
>
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2021, Sanchit Ghule via BlindMath wrote:
>
> > Ha Ha. Well said Michael.
> > Asking book publisher for accessible material is like sweating for small
> > stuff. And finally turned out that I have to have learn math ML. I wish I
> > would have enough intelligence rather than depending on artificial one.
> May
> > god shower GPL for me.
> > Sanchit.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Michael Evers via BlindMath <
> > blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Bookshare does not currently
> offer
> >> math textbooks in the MathML Format. Trying to find a vender with the
> >> expertise to perform transcription services for converting math
> textbooks
> >> into MathML is like pulling teeth. The only solution is for you to try
> to
> >> learn MathML and perform the conversions yourself.
> >> There are software programs that can do a lot of the work for
> you,
> >> but you
> >> will still have to go through all of the mathematical expressions to
> make
> >> sure that all of the transcriptions were performed correctly. That
> task in
> >> and of itself can take several months depending on how much time and
> human
> >> resources you have at your disposal. Most likely, converting these
> >> textbooks into MathML is nothing more than a pipe dream until this
> pandemic
> >> is over and venders make themselves available again.
> >> Good luck getting the textbook publishers to convert their
> >> materials into
> >> MathML for you. That task is even more impossible to accomplish,
> because
> >> they don't care. I know that I have tried getting textbooks converted
> into
> >> MathML for one of my engineering students and have not been able to find
> >> any
> >> venders willing or able to help my university at all. Every vender
> that I
> >> have reached out to, including UC Boulder and Georgia Tech Center for
> >> Instructional Design have all said they do not have the human resources
> to
> >> convert textbook materials into MathML, because of the COVID-19
> pandemic,
> >> but if they have materials in their repositories, they would gladly let
> me
> >> have access to them. The problem is, my student's professors are
> requiring
> >> textbooks that are currently not in these vender's repositories. So,
> we're
> >> back to square one. Good luck trying to find these resources. Let us
> know
> >> how it works out.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Akashdeep Bansal <akashdeep.bansal4 at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 1:20 AM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> >>
> >> You can check on Bookshare.
> >>
> >> I-Stem (http://www.istemai.com/) provides service for conversion of
> >> documents into accessible formats. We also fixes the bugs through manual
> >> corrections and can provide output in mml. Pls let me know if you are
> >> interested.
> >>
> >> On 3/1/21, Kellee Sanchez via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>> Hello! We have a student in higher level math class, aerodynamics to
> >>> be exact, and the online book is not accessible. There are many people
> >>> working on a viable avenues to get the student their book before the
> >>> semester ends, but it is looking bleak. Does anyone have suggestions
> >>> how to get the book into MML? Also, what can I do when this occurs
> >>> again? Who can I contact? The book is Fundamentals of Aerodynamics 6th
> >>> ed. By JD Anderson. Thank you for any assistance you can give!
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> BlindMath mailing list
> >>> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> BlindMath:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/akashdeep.bansa
> >>> l4%40gmail.com
> >>> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> >>> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thanks and Regards
> >> Akashdeep Bansal
> >> Research Scholar (PhD)
> >> Amar Nath and Shashi Khosla School of Information Technology Indian
> >> Institute of Technology Delhi Hauz Khas, New Delhi 110016 INDIA
> >> web: http://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/~akashdeep/
> >> <http://web.iitd.ernet.in/~anz168049/>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BlindMath mailing list
> >> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> BlindMath:
> >>
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sanchitjghule%40gmail.com
> >> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> >> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/farmer%40aimath.org
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 15:53:52 +0000
> From: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <
> DM6PR03MB40096BA1DF4B857B47AD30DBFB9A9 at DM6PR03MB4009.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me
> to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
>
> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many
> hours. A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is
> for one book. Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the
> beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them
> right now.
>
> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not
> accessible to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at
> all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the
> conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone
> can do. I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let
> them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML
> production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into
> Braille, MathML, or other outputs.
>
> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic
> is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses
> being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with
> multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best
> we can. But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours
> in a day. And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math
> remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that
> loss of a vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I think
> there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But campuses
> often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours.
> We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and
> less than some other vendors in the field.
>
> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year
> to year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
>
> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> possible. We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials
> from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto
> files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best to
> advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often
> tied. And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making
> Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an
> 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400
> page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
>
> I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded
> person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to
> alternate format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they
> are not where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will
> continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
>
> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or
> Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have the
> files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
> Susan Kelmer
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager
> Disability Services/Student Affairs
> University of Colorado Boulder
> Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 16:05:03 +0000
> From: Louis Maher <ljmaher03 at outlook.com>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [BlindMath] STEM Meeting Recording
> Message-ID:
> <
> SN6PR07MB497627D86F4E29FF27B9E51AAA9A9 at SN6PR07MB4976.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Folks,
>
> The recording of the Science and Engineering / NABS STEM meeting held on
> February 28, 2021, can be found at
> "
> https://zoom.us/rec/share/qIkiqRKP3lkdS26Qy78fGlmlboUgWMko9jEWNtmfhZgPMJM_Oj0X3lFbHd3OX_MD.tbuZ03iWOLV53iSx
> ".
>
> There should be minutes in about a week.
>
>
>
> Regards
> Louis Maher
> Phone: 713-444-7838
> E-mail ljmaher03 at outlook.com<mailto:ljmaher03 at outlook.com>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 10:12:31 -0600
> From: Susan Osterhaus <osterhauss at tsbvi.edu>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Louis Maher <ljmaher03 at outlook.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] STEM Meeting Recording
> Message-ID: <2b1913a1c6879c2903e5c60b31bcc0f0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Thank you Louis!
>
> Could you please forward Neil's handout to us as well?
>
> Enjoyed the session!!
> Susan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Louis
> Maher via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 10:05 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Louis Maher <ljmaher03 at outlook.com>
> Subject: [BlindMath] STEM Meeting Recording
>
> Folks,
>
> The recording of the Science and Engineering / NABS STEM meeting held on
> February 28, 2021, can be found at
> "https://zoom.us/rec/share/qIkiqRKP3lkdS26Qy78fGlmlboUgWMko9jEWNtmfhZgPMJM
> _Oj0X3lFbHd3OX_MD.tbuZ03iWOLV53iSx".
>
> There should be minutes in about a week.
>
>
>
> Regards
> Louis Maher
> Phone: 713-444-7838
> E-mail ljmaher03 at outlook.com<mailto:ljmaher03 at outlook.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/susanosterhaus%40ts
> bvi.edu
> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 11:13:10 -0500
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sina at sinabahram.com>
> To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID: <008901d70eb5$c66c8870$53459950$@sinabahram.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Susan,
>
> Thank you for all that you do. This is an excellent summary of the
> disgusting state of affairs in this country when it comes to publishers
> taking actions that directly harm thousands of students with disabilities
> every single year. While automation and a bit of advancement in the
> software
> will eventually reduce some of the hour counts you're talking about, the
> entire need for that effort is absolutely unnecessary. Calculus has not
> changed one single bit since 20 years ago, hell since 100 years ago.
>
> As a blind student that benefited from the hard work that incredible humans
> such as yourself do on a daily basis, I can only offer my extreme
> gratitude.
>
> This problem is one as old as the publishing industry, but I will reach out
> to some colleagues that have direct access to legislative processes to at
> least see if there's something we can do to get a bit of this problem on
> the
> agenda in the next couple of years.
>
> While not as applicable to textbooks, let's not forget encouraging authors
> to make sure their materials are accessible as well. Fight for the future
> recently released www.WhoCanGetYourBook.com and while that's more targeted
> towards works of fiction and such, the same underlying inequities and
> completely inhumane business practices and lobbying behaviors affect both
> textbooks and those for English/Law class.
>
> while it may be a futile effort, I'd like to shed some public light on this
> matter. Please contact me off list if you would be willing to be part of
> such discussions.
>
> sina at sinabahram.com
>
> Thank you again for making a difference in people's lives with your work,
> your time, and your dedication.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
> Phone: 919-345-3832
> https://www.PAC.bz
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
> via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 10:54 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me
> to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our
> students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
>
> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons
> and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many hours. A
> full
> calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is for one book.
> Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of
> the
> semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.
>
> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content
> from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not accessible
> to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at all, because
> it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the conversion for STEM
> materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone can do. I train
> student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let them work on
> projects
> until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML production. We use MathType
> in
> Word to create the files we then turn into Braille, MathML, or other
> outputs.
>
> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic
> is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses
> being
> taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with multiple
> types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best we can.
> But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a
> day.
> And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation
> several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a
> vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I think there has
> always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But campuses often
> balk
> at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours. We are not
> gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than
> some
> other vendors in the field.
>
> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when
> the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year to
> year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
>
> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> possible.
> We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from
> publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto
> files
> for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best to
> advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often
> tied.
> And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft
> Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an 1800 page law
> book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400 page math
> book
> takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
>
> I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded person
> and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to alternate
> format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they are not
> where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will continue to
> carry on this fight with publishers.
>
> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or
> Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have the
> files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
> Susan Kelmer
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager
> Disability Services/Student Affairs
> University of Colorado Boulder
> Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sina%40sinabahram.com
> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 10:13:12 -0600 (CST)
> From: Mike Gorse <mike at straddlethebox.org>
> To: Susan Kelmer via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.21.2103011004090.10104 at straddlethebox.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Textbooks are out of my wheelhouse these days, and I'm not particularly up
> on the related technology, but I feel like there ought to be a solution
> that doesn't involve a lot of manual work on your part. I wonder about the
> source for these textbooks, since it is definitely not a PDF. If they
> don't already exist, then couldn't the publishers put resources into
> improving existing tools to convert the existing source (maybe LaTeX) into
> MathML?
>
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2021, Susan Kelmer via BlindMath wrote:
>
> > As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains
> me to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
> >
> > That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many
> hours. A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is
> for one book. Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the
> beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them
> right now.
> >
> > We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not
> accessible to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at
> all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the
> conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone
> can do. I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let
> them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML
> production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into
> Braille, MathML, or other outputs.
> >
> > To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the
> pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more
> courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students
> with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the
> best we can. But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many
> hours in a day. And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing
> Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of
> that loss of a vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I
> think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But
> campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab
> like ours. We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our
> services, and less than some other vendors in the field.
> >
> > Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year
> to year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
> >
> > Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> possible. We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials
> from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto
> files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best to
> advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often
> tied. And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making
> Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an
> 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400
> page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other
> animal.
> >
> > I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded
> person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to
> alternate format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they
> are not where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will
> continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
> >
> > And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or
> Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have the
> files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> >
> > Susan Kelmer
> > Alternate Format Production Program Manager
> > Disability Services/Student Affairs
> > University of Colorado Boulder
> > Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 19:20:20 +0300
> From: "Nikita" <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
> To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID: <005401d70eb6$c6a1d3d0$53e57b70$@yandex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Susan,
> Why don't you use InftyReader in your work?
> InftyReader is OCR software for mathematical document. See
> https://www.sciaccess.net/en/InftyReader/
> Have you tried this tool? Doesn't it help automate at least some of your
> work?
> Best regards, Nikita.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
> via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 6:54 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me
> to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our
> students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
>
> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons
> and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many hours. A
> full
> calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is for one book.
> Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of
> the
> semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.
>
> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content
> from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not accessible
> to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at all, because
> it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the conversion for STEM
> materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone can do. I train
> student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let them work on
> projects
> until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML production. We use MathType
> in
> Word to create the files we then turn into Braille, MathML, or other
> outputs.
>
> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic
> is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses
> being
> taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with multiple
> types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best we can.
> But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a
> day.
> And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation
> several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a
> vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I think there has
> always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But campuses often
> balk
> at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours. We are not
> gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than
> some
> other vendors in the field.
>
> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when
> the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year to
> year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
>
> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> possible.
> We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from
> publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto
> files
> for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best to
> advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often
> tied.
> And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft
> Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an 1800 page law
> book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400 page math
> book
> takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
>
> I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded person
> and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to alternate
> format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they are not
> where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will continue to
> carry on this fight with publishers.
>
> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or
> Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have the
> files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
> Susan Kelmer
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager
> Disability Services/Student Affairs
> University of Colorado Boulder
> Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/nikitamailings%40yand
> ex.com
> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/nikitamailings%40yandex.com>
> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 16:20:29 +0000
> From: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <
> DM6PR03MB4009BACD78AD70E424857846FB9A9 at DM6PR03MB4009.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Publishers COULD do better, but there is no financial incentive for them
> to do so, and no law to compel them. There is, at this time, no true
> automation for math production on our end. And the original files the
> publisher may have could be anything from Latex to Adobe Illustrator.
>
> -Susan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Mike Gorse
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 9:13 AM
> To: Susan Kelmer via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Mike Gorse <mike at straddlethebox.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> Textbooks are out of my wheelhouse these days, and I'm not particularly up
> on the related technology, but I feel like there ought to be a solution
> that doesn't involve a lot of manual work on your part. I wonder about the
> source for these textbooks, since it is definitely not a PDF. If they don't
> already exist, then couldn't the publishers put resources into improving
> existing tools to convert the existing source (maybe LaTeX) into MathML?
>
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2021, Susan Kelmer via BlindMath wrote:
>
> > As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains
> me to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
> >
> > That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many
> hours. A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is
> for one book. Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the
> beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them
> right now.
> >
> > We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not
> accessible to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at
> all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the
> conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone
> can do. I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let
> them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML
> production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into
> Braille, MathML, or other outputs.
> >
> > To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the
> pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more
> courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students
> with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the
> best we can. But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many
> hours in a day. And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing
> Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of
> that loss of a vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I
> think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But
> campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab
> like ours. We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our
> services, and less than some other vendors in the field.
> >
> > Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year
> to year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
> >
> > Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> > students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> > materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> > possible. We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent
> > materials from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some
> > publishers hold onto files for weeks, instead of just providing them
> > to us when we ask. We are frustrated and angry that long-time campus
> > culture doesn't give us enough lead time to work on materials because
> > we don't know what those materials are until just before or sometimes
> > after classes start. We do our best to advocate, and work with
> > faculty on this issue, but our hands are often tied. And math
> > conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft Word
> > files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an 1800 page law
> > book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400 page
> > math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other
> animal.
> >
> > I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded
> person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to
> alternate format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they
> are not where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will
> continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
> >
> > And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML
> > or Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I
> > have the files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> >
> > Susan Kelmer
> > Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability
> > Services/Student Affairs University of Colorado Boulder
> > Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
>
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> BlindMath:
>
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1Hs-L8fecp01AjReK6a67PYdOcIfrtewdBdTFhyIm4ZcoyiZEbyaqQIRQsmPHBmhTv4RdahMiyagazje7c8Vok8TEfDORuj2AJZP_u_UFHj8RSjNRVZqVAaal2kWFlNyhphzUvH_8MUFZdqGfAWM-YaMGe93SBYeTQ7mk9Zu0CpkyhLCFoz-wT2l3-GtettQN5uZR1dQzZoiChzJBQYCC44PMTp9h_u-Pz-7AFga-Tt3bsRfFAEhDFa4ZqycTbtwBO14DeizPIPxOhC8FrWloMkPJyI5sTxg8sOp7xppDguCYw_3E_XGW0o-tW2PaerywnkEQVw-srZitU7BfoyK7bxpl7Q_vBcC0fiCk0cosyLYxqXElcpWUzz3uSPr-j3wX5EH6VirgQ0NxWbsqeiEV5jVP6cIOLw1ZDU7_NNuMZFK8xTJoCvQubDc2eR8_DFUgA_chxmCfBv4uIbUY3smzgw/http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fsusan.kelmer%2540colorado.edu
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1linKpLUZit5woT7XWKbOsUBJZauyqa9VNkxm3BisaYpAeOCtS2qv1zIxDpyucU8xAyIGegwh9kBBNDceHvv3dRrcYXlG4JZBnUW93D7CK8B9zMaC0aLz7lOBviJ6NB5PkJh4yXMJk70kVe12arhnOvKAA45GSJnz9l0gS4-wBEJh9skOVWE3eEjvbesXxp59SdeRoTRTEvet6TRnPuMe4VjvWiKHBM9l5PQsZV94DPR3u5d8VbCFj_p5k6cimQab8V1hwQRE35cbgEQOYatRQOAbeoGgNbSIQXZpYp2ymjXYjW8EOaH7NL48g46iJA9nT-o5FW3ZWRZ71gCXTYdfn_7xEmJfmzR_Osq-889wZZ3I5C2nNV7va6mj9nh1Sdy8dNSwP3bRaw3Kw1WZhQqXvXs9VoecLdX7xFqR-45xWThlnb0fud9xD6xCQOHX1cqPSVMiXmUN-pmcRNKBq4uJVw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:09:28 -0800
> From: Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <CAKAWQkW1_qD42_WAZo-iX3=
> dN-T-cqw33GCBU2jUKTyo5K1EKw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello,
> What I have done is found a student who is open to using pandoc and who
> knows LaTeX, and has taken the level of math we're doing. Then I have that
> student convert The textbook to LaTeX, using Pandoc to check their output.
> This has worked rather well.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 8:14 AM Mike Gorse via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> > Textbooks are out of my wheelhouse these days, and I'm not particularly
> up
> > on the related technology, but I feel like there ought to be a solution
> > that doesn't involve a lot of manual work on your part. I wonder about
> the
> > source for these textbooks, since it is definitely not a PDF. If they
> > don't already exist, then couldn't the publishers put resources into
> > improving existing tools to convert the existing source (maybe LaTeX)
> into
> > MathML?
> >
> > On Mon, 1 Mar 2021, Susan Kelmer via BlindMath wrote:
> >
> > > As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains
> > me to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> > textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> > our students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients
> are
> > usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> > facility. We have a full production facility.
> > >
> > > That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> > buttons and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many
> > hours. A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is
> > for one book. Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at
> the
> > beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them
> > right now.
> > >
> > > We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> > format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> > alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who
> work
> > in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> > work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> > content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not
> > accessible to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at
> > all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the
> > conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just
> anyone
> > can do. I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let
> > them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML
> > production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into
> > Braille, MathML, or other outputs.
> > >
> > > To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the
> > pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more
> > courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of
> students
> > with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing
> the
> > best we can. But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so
> many
> > hours in a day. And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing
> > Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out
> of
> > that loss of a vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I
> > think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But
> > campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab
> > like ours. We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our
> > services, and less than some other vendors in the field.
> > >
> > > Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> > every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was
> in
> > 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses
> and
> > vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> > every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> > money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> > Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> > request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what
> publishers
> > do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> > when the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from
> year
> > to year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
> > >
> > > Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> > students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> > materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as
> > possible. We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials
> > from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold
> onto
> > files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> > frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> > lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> > are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best
> to
> > advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often
> > tied. And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making
> > Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an
> > 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a
> 400
> > page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other
> > animal.
> > >
> > > I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded
> > person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to
> > alternate format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but
> they
> > are not where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will
> > continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
> > >
> > > And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML
> or
> > Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have
> the
> > files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> > >
> > > Susan Kelmer
> > > Alternate Format Production Program Manager
> > > Disability Services/Student Affairs
> > > University of Colorado Boulder
> > > Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindMath:
> >
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 17:28:48 +0000
> From: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> Message-ID:
> <
> DM6PR03MB40093D50B566DE468D179B15FB9A9 at DM6PR03MB4009.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> We have found wildly mixed results with INFTY. Each equation output from
> INFTY needs to be checked for accuracy, and actually takes longer than our
> current method of processing. As we are charging by the hour for our work
> to clients, we are not willing to use an inefficient product that would
> cost them more. The time needed to compare each and every equation, plus
> additional stress on the eyes by moving back and forth to check them all,
> is completely inefficient and reduces the number of hours we can spend
> actually doing production. We find better, higher quality results using
> our current method.
>
> -Susan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 9:20 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> Hi Susan,
> Why don't you use InftyReader in your work?
> InftyReader is OCR software for mathematical document. See
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1t5G1T9JRFboOSgGmzXDWmlBwrcOPEui20sKEPwS0O01S3y2PXyHTa9FYImbzqVwvax6VhsbDicWAo_yqoGiSDv7yIdvEAEPRC3LnqozR_SNL6N_456t0ubUaEGw40MvpBe9NPOa2sooDy3flS7LmWDU_I2mHNwHsZu53us7cS_9xnjQK0PJboUUIf9CPnLuH8y8-VJKzv80Dy3GzBbXTE3coAEO8u07miL3_nPHD6RBv_MFpBF0JeLDrvlEcnFi1fOg3BIRkpj9AQZ8DrBzU1Uz6PoysRuLIOMYkwmVtf8xyNkMgmo4v-Q3vZsTUE65o8Ql1g-0DMMoq-e2e8eWPoooNhFLK0S-fBtxg5Z22WtjP_wvhgRpj9fV0euj8fgDU6bjYtQP_3ysrYB8tO9bpDzvdbcoQt6A0Ug1ae2xvIlMWkPhMhf3VvyqXII9m_QQit0wEq8pyhEmM-QU-TJimcQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciaccess.net%2Fen%2FInftyReader%2F
> Have you tried this tool? Doesn't it help automate at least some of your
> work?
> Best regards, Nikita.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 6:54 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>
> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me
> to see the struggle with accessible math. We regularly convert math
> textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for
> our students and for clients who contract our services. Those clients are
> usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production
> facility. We have a full production facility.
>
> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few
> buttons and collecting the output. Math conversion takes hours, many
> hours. A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete. That is
> for one book.
> Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of
> the semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.
>
> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate
> format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide
> alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work
> in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this
> work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original
> content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not
> accessible to everyone. We are obviously grateful to get any content at
> all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the
> conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone
> can do. I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let
> them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML
> production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into
> Braille, MathML, or other outputs.
>
> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic
> is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses
> being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with
> multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best
> we can.
> But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a
> day.
> And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation
> several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a
> vendor. I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did. I think there has
> always been a lack of enough vendors in this field. But campuses often
> balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours. We are
> not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than
> some other vendors in the field.
>
> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated
> every year. A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in
> 2001. There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and
> vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed. Yet
> every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more
> money. This is a frustration. I have three different editions of Linear
> Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a
> request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers
> do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things,
> when the older version would work just fine. Math doesn't change from year
> to year. They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.
>
> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for
> students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get
> materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as possible.
> We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from
> publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto
> files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are
> frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough
> lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials
> are until just before or sometimes after classes start. We do our best to
> advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often tied.
> And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft
> Word files of a standard textbook or novel. I can convert an 1800 page law
> book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less. Yet a 400 page math
> book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
>
> I fight with publishers all the time. I'm a socially-justice-minded
> person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to
> alternate format. Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they
> are not where they need to be. All I can do is promise that I will
> continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
>
> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or
> Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email. If I have the
> files, I will share them with you. Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
> Susan Kelmer
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services/Student
> Affairs University of Colorado Boulder Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org
>
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