[BlindMath] Questions about Nemeth and UEB

[Donald Winiecki]

FWIW, UEB MATH is supposed to follow math meaning and not shape similarity
with print symbols. That issue has more to do with how transcribers are
trained than the code itself.

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 5:35 PM Traci W via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> Nemeth will always be my love!  It makes sense - I find UEBmath code boring
> and trying to be too literal (by shape) and it falls flat and it takes up a
> whole lot more space!  Nemeth forever!  :)
>
> Yes, I'm biased!
> Traci Wilkerson
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 6:59 PM Neil Soiffer via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> > A comment, a shameless plug, and a request for feedback...
> >
> > Comment: Both JAWS and VoiceOver/Safari only support Nemeth from MathML
> at
> > the moment.
> >
> > Shameless plug: If you want UEB output from MathML, you need to use
> > NVDA+MathCAT.
> >
> > Comment + shameless plug: If you would like to compare Nemeth and UEB,
> you
> > can do so by looking at the MathCATDemo page
> > <https://nsoiffer.github.io/MathCATDemo/>. That page is meant to show
> what
> > accessible math can be like. It is NOT meant for people who need to read
> > math -- use NVDA+MathCAT on your web page or Word document for doing
> actual
> > reading. The demo page is fully accessible with the braille text area
> > marked as a region so it shouldn't be too painful in a screen reader to
> > jump between input and braille. The input is pretty flexible -- it takes
> > ASCIIMath <http://asciimath.org/>, TeX, and MathML as input. You can
> turn
> > off the speech if it is annoying (and it will save me a few tenths of a
> > penny also). Besides Nemeth's use of drop numbers, the most obvious
> > difference between Nemeth and UEB you'll see is that UEB is longer,
> > sometimes considerably so.
> >
> > Request for Feedback: if you find a bug in the braille output (either
> > Nemeth or UEB), PLEASE let me know. The quality of braille people accept
> > from screen readers is shockingly low. I am striving to make MathCAT an
> > exception -- tests I have done seem to bear that out. If you are a UEB
> > reader, then you know there are grade 1 symbol, word, and passage
> > indicators. Both BANA and ICEB have vague guidelines on when to use which
> > for math... and they contradict in a few cases. I'd like to improve
> > MathCAT's heuristics for that, so if you feel MathCAT should have chosen
> a
> > different one from what it did, please send me the input and an
> explanation
> > of why you think the different indicator makes sense in this case. Bonus
> > points for trying to come up with a general rule.
> >
> > Finally, if you have suggestions for options to control UEB output, let
> me
> > know. I am NOT a braille reader, so some things I find surprising in
> > braille may seem very sensible to someone who reads braille. For example,
> > "sin x" is " ⠎⠔⠀⠰⠭" but "2sin x" is " ⠼⠃⠎⠊⠝⠀⠰⠭" -- the contracted "in" in
> > the first expression is now spelled out because the '2' introduces grade
> > one mode. To me, that difference makes it harder to quickly recognize
> > "sin", and hence patterns in the output containing "sin". Maybe these
> > differences are second nature to someone who knows UEB well and it
> doesn't
> > get in the way of recognizing patterns. A previous poster recommended
> using
> > uncontracted braille. If that is something you'd find useful, please send
> > me email (I don't think the mailing list needs to know everyone's
> thoughts)
> > and if several people think that would be useful, I'll add an option to
> > MathCAT to force grade1. Other suggestions for improvements to MathCAT
> are
> > also welcome.
> >
> > Neil Soiffer
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > BlindMath:
> >
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/traci.mwd%40gmail.com
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >
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>
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> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>
-- 
DON WINIECKI
Handid Braille Services
• a 501(c)(3) non-profit producer of braille & accessible media
• specializing in languages that don't use Latin symbols systems
Email: dwiniecki at handid.org
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