[BlindMath] scientific notebook or something better

Tue Feb 27 20:27:26 UTC 2024

Hello,

I tried a 7 page pdf of a journal article from 2001. I used both the file to docx and file to html buttons for comparison.

The html was better for making use of semantic structures, but I could not save the outcome which opened automatically. The docx file automatically downloaded. My preference is to retain a file so I'm disappointed the HTML didn't download.

The docx did not use all the simple semantic structures I would have thought it would. My conversion of the docx to html and plain markdown using pandoc showed me the headings were font-adjusted text not headings for example.

I did like the quick fix solution this tool gives me, and with time and feedback from users, it could become a tool I use frequently.

Access to the source still wins hands down, and of course that is what I would insist on if I was a parent or TVI working with a young person

I did find the mathematical representations were somewhat overcomplicated in order to get the look to match. Overcomplicated source will add burden to the usefulness for screen reader users. As an example, the equations in my article had piles of tags to force letters in equations to be presented in math italics. That made reding the source a less pleasant experience.

I'll try to send feedback to the developers.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Amanda Lacy via BlindMath
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 9:08 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Amanda Lacy <aklacy at tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] scientific notebook or something better

I just tried uploading a file 2 times. Nothing happened. I didn't get an error message or anything, just no download.

> On Feb 27, 2024, at 2:04 PM, Noble, Stephen via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> This Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside
> your organization.
> MathKicker uses Mathpix for their math OCR, so I suspect one will not see any differences. All OCR applications will of course have issues. MathKicker has an upload file limit, and it balked when I tried to upload an entire chapter from a calculus textbook. Works fine with smaller files, though. I didn't look into it, but maybe you get to convert larger files when you get a paid subscription...that would make sense.
>
> The output into Word saves all the math expressions as OMML islands
> (that is Word's native math expression format). Both NVDA with MathCAT
> and JAWS can read and navigate these expressions. For more about
> MathCAT's braille output, see MathCAT: Math Capable Assistive
> Technology | MathCAT (nsoiffer.github.io
> <http://nsoi/
> ffer.github.io%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfdda
> f3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C
> 638446613895528225%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo
> iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rADqQ95sOse
> 6l9u1cUwkcgstZRFaKAnQlq60O5i4hM8%3D&reserved=0>)<https://apc01.safelin/
> ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__h
> ttps%3A%2F%2Fnsoiffer.github.io%2FMathCAT%2F__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge
> _RdODQeYTrGi1P1ESGrvQFFmbWJhvBFEZMwbhup2E6w6ULHNdDAJJqHqkv7uOgfHpg3EVY
> 49Y%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd
> 108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C63844661389
> 5535783%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC
> JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F%2FOewczMqkTEP%2BO6
> EVxg1jXc0ORsFlI7qF%2F%2FcDPzckQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
> --Steve Noble
> steve.noble at louisville.edu <mailto:steve.noble at louisville.edu>
> 502-969-3088
> ________________________________
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> on behalf of Bert Van Landeghem
> via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 11:25 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Cc: Bert Van Landeghem <b.vanlandeghem at sheffield.ac.uk
> <mailto:b.vanlandeghem at sheffield.ac.uk>>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] scientific notebook or something better
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the contents are safe.
>
> Dear all,
>
> Thank you for this very interesting conversation.
>
> How does Mathkicker compare to Mathpix when it comes to conversion quality?
> On the blog post I read that the screenreader could read the
> mathkicker conversions. Which screenreader was being used, in what
> type of Braille were the math expressions displayed, and in which
> format was the conversion saved? I think that JAWS for Windows could
> show Nemeth Braille but only if you chose contracted US Braille. Is
> displaying braille math now also possible in other (uncontracted)
> braille tables? Is there a good overview somewhere of which braille math is supported by which screenreader?
>
> Kind regards,
> Bert
>
>
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 16:15, Susan Osterhaus via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>
> > Hi Melissa,
> >
> > I totally understand. I started using Scientific Notebook with
> > Duxbury years ago, and you may have learned about it from one of my
> > workshops. I truly loved it. However, I agree with everything Steve said below.
> >
> > Plus, this MathKicker is a real game changer. I stumbled across it
> > on Denise Robinson's facebook page where she had one of her latest
> > video's on it. I told Diane Brauner, and she quickly wrote a nice blog about it at:
> > https://ww/
> > w.perkins.org%2Fresource%2Fcreate-accessible-digital-math-with-mathk
> > &data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108d
> > c37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C6384466138955
> > 41368%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC
> > JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6Nr%2Ft9O0tY8auxXl%2
> > FdbhnZmK2K%2F%2FfNsf4PFTBNKBOCQ%3D&reserved=0<https://apc01.safelink/
> > s.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__
> > https%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkins.org%2Fresource%2Fcreate-accessible-digital
> > -math-with-mathk__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYTrGi1P1ESGrvQFFmbW
> > JhvBFEZMwbhup2E6w6ULHNdDAJJqHqkv7uOgfHpg5PRPAwY%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.
> > j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728
> > e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638446613895545771%7CUnknown%7C
> > TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX
> > VCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cadS99d4QX1CtoDs%2FySmFXYHcyXaBjScGTuD
> > Z9gVBDU%3D&reserved=0>
> > icker-ai/
> > <https://w/
> > ww.perkins.org%2Fresource%2Fcreate-accessible-digital-math-with-math
> > kicker-ai%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf30
> > 94b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C6
> > 38446613895550138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj
> > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PvuuGFXQ
> > tt%2BjUGVewWEvz4fDwiTI3IKek5yZcmAEJ6E%3D&reserved=0<https://apc01.sa/
> > felinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv
> > 3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkins.org%2Fresource%2Fcreate-accessible-d
> > igital-math-with-mathkicker-ai%2F__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYT
> > rGi1P1ESGrvQFFmbWJhvBFEZMwbhup2E6w6ULHNdDAJJqHqkv7uOgfHpgra8t6Ik%24&
> > data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc
> > 37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C63844661389555
> > 4261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ
> > BTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Z556vqlWpoF%2FiUZcVVx
> > u7Ypl51yFNvkDjh%2BV4a7AgTo%3D&reserved=0>>
> > , which includes direct links to Denise's videos. Another colleague,
> > Sara Larkin from Iowa, has also been awed by it. The AI doesn't
> > describe the graphics yet, but it can handle a lot of mathematical
> > expressions, even inside tables. Ashley Neybert said it couldn't
> > handle some of her math expressions, but it's brand new, so I think
> > we have to be patient and give the AI a chance to learn!! <grin>
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> > Noble, Stephen via BlindMath
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 9:35 AM
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Noble, Stephen <steve.noble at louisville.edu
> > <mailto:steve.noble at louisville.edu>>
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] scientific notebook or something better
> >
> > Hi Melissa,
> >
> > It has been a while since I have looked into this, but it used to be
> > the simplest to use MathType with DBT. That is still one of the
> > methods DBT mentions on their website: DBT and Braille Math
> > (duxburysystems.com
> > <http://du/
> > xburysystems.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7b
> > fddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%
> > 7C0%7C638446613895558537%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
> > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X
> > pH%2BCBnZ93kfswoyE6R1rnM3X4otyg84FBcqEtPB0gk%3D&reserved=0>)<https:/
> > /apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.duxbu
> > rysystems.com%2Fdbt_math.asp&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.
> > nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e64
> > 4300%7C1%7C0%7C638446613895562251%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
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> > C&sdata=biHpIAKR3LcTUSoOq39S46OHbBblDhRfnZvrHso2tJk%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > I should also add that if you are starting from something like a PDF
> > that was downloaded from a website, then you could save some time by
> > using
> > MathKicker<http://https/
> > %3A%2F%2Fmathkicker.ai%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%
> > 7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638446613895565954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qtRL0y7o%2BfPpN60NSAzJRCCKg%2BhlxvZLuQXMw1SFO3Q%3D&reserved=0<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mathkicker.ai/__;!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYTrGi1P1ESGrvQFFmbWJhvBFEZMwbhup2E6w6ULHNdDAJJqHqkv7uOgfHpg5SmAusU$>> to do a conversion to Word, and then use MathType's convert expressions command to convert all the math expressions from OMML (Word's native math format) to MathType expressions before you pull it into DBT.
> >
> > --Steve Noble
> > steve.noble at louisville.edu <mailto:steve.noble at louisville.edu>
> > 502-969-3088
> > ________________________________
> > From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > <mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> on behalf of Fischer, Melissa
> > via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 9:13 AM
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> > <blindmath at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> > Cc: melissa.fischer at ksb.kyschools.us
> > <mailto:melissa.fischer at ksb.kyschools.us>
> > <melissa.fischer at ksb.kyschools.us
> > <mailto:melissa.fischer at ksb.kyschools.us>>
> > Subject: [BlindMath] scientific notebook or something better
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do
> > not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize
> > the sender's email address and know the contents are safe.
> >
> > Hi All
> > I am looking to see if scientific notebook still seems to be best
> > option to use with duxbury. I see the newest version is not
> > compatible with with duxbury.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > Your Partner in Education,
> >
> > Melissa Fischer
> >
> > Middle School Math Teacher
> >
> > Kentucky School for the Blind
> >
> > 1867 Frankfort Ave
> > Louisville, KY 40206
> >
> > Phone: (502) 897-1583 ext:7318
> >
> > Fax: (502) 897-2850
> >
> >
> >
> > "The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or
> > even touched - they must be felt with the heart.." Helen Keller
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <http://0l/
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> > Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbn
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> > >
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > <http://ww/
> > w.blin%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b
> > 219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C6384
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> > <http://ds/
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> > TkmxW%2FlXimLco7oy%2FTSC2QXOtIu%2BeXa3AhU%3D&reserved=0<https://apc0
> > 1.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindsc%2F&
> > data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc
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> > ience.org/blindmath-gems-home
> > <http://ie/
> > nce.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac
> > .nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e6
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> > 7C&sdata=IsZLA5MKolf3EYp72DtW2HuRhLkHkpQCUAzDgFPIIjQ%3D&reserved=0>>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org <mailto:BlindMath at nfbnet.org>
> > http://nfb/
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> > ?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2
> > Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge
> > _RdODQeYTrGi1P1ESGrvQFFmbWJhvBFEZMwbhup2E6w6ULHNdDAJJqHqkv7uOgfHpgZZ
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> > SpiIXVeq2lSHRsRs9KhPeiMlCKGAruNsE%3D&reserved=0>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > for
> > BlindMath:
> > http://nfb/
> > net.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fsusanosterhaus%
> > 2540ts&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219
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> > s.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__
> > http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2
> > Fsusanosterhaus*40ts__%3BJQ!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYTrGi1P1ESGrv
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> > ZkYI7Sj2d1I%2Fc%3D&reserved=0> bvi.edu
> > <http://bv/
> > i.edu%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b2
> > 19cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C63844
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> > %2BykSr6NAES6TY5kBC%2BAoJ1YDIn%2Fd%2BaI%3D&reserved=0>
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > <http://ww/
> > w.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%
> > 40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd04378
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> > e.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYTrGi1P1
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> > c1RndGt1V1mV0yUu7o%3D&reserved=0>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BlindMath mailing list
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org <mailto:BlindMath at nfbnet.org>
> > http://nfb/
> > net.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C02%7Ca
> > .j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C38872
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> > DyeJfk%3D&reserved=0<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/
> > ?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2
> > Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge
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> > TwTMlDD8jGQtXWoBsLUHR7KnspA%2B%2FQg%3D&reserved=0>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > for
> > BlindMath:
> >
> > http://nfb/
> > net.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fb.vanlandeghem%
> > 2540sheffield.ac.uk&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7b
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> > pc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.
> > com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath
> > _nfbnet.org%2Fb.vanlandeghem*40sheffield.ac.uk__%3BJQ!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq
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> > qUgj9%2FdRrLu3liRNrCsBYj03hrG4Yf5l6l75s7Y%3D&reserved=0>
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> > http://www/
> > .blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%4
> > 0massey.ac.nz%7Cbf7bfddaf3094b219cd108dc37d00aa0%7C388728e1bbd043789
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> > %3D&reserved=0><https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.
> > org%2Fblindmath-gems-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!DLFq02Bdge_RdODQeYTrGi1P1ES
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> > 2i8v6l1uLIMwD6vZNg%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMath mailing list
> BlindMath at nfbnet.org <mailto:BlindMath at nfbnet.org>
> http://nfbne/
> t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.g
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