From raymcal at att.net Thu Apr 9 21:47:19 2026 From: raymcal at att.net (Ray McAllister) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2026 17:47:19 -0400 Subject: [BlindMath] Question for y'all. References: <000201dcc86a$7a0f64b0$6e2e2e10$.ref@att.net> Message-ID: <000201dcc86a$7a0f64b0$6e2e2e10$@att.net> Hi, okay, so I'm going to assume that a number of us are on various assistance programs like Medicaid. Now, I was learning in an abstract algebra book about these error-checking systems, where the digits of a number will be rigged so that the sum of the digits, when run through some algorithm, will be a remainder of 0 if divided by something. ISBN numbers, for books, for example, run like this. The first 10 digits, D1, d2, d3, . d10, for their digit numbers. We do a dot product (d1, d2, d2, . d10) * (10, 9, 8, 7, . 1), and if the last digit needs to be 10, we put X there. That is all to be id 0 mod 11. So, for the first 3 digits of most books, 987. 9*10 + 8*9 + 7*8 = 218, which isn't anything, but keep going, and it will work. So I ran my Michigan Medicaid, 10-digit number, through the same algorithm, and the result was also id 0 mod 11. This method prevents single digit errors, orerrors in switching digits. I wonder if any of you have Medicaid numbers, especially if you're in Michigan, that do this, also, or if mine is just random chance. Ray. From mhorspool at live.co.uk Tue Apr 28 14:39:29 2026 From: mhorspool at live.co.uk (Matthew Horspool) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:39:29 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA Message-ID: Hi all, A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille display. We are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat feature in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed by shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. You can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have played with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any work which is already being done to produce one? Thanks and best wishes, Matthew From mwhapples at aim.com Tue Apr 28 19:27:34 2026 From: mwhapples at aim.com (Michael Whapples) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 20:27:34 +0100 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the student does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth probably is not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset of LaTeX. As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in ASCIIMath or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or LaTeX. This will be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis and other tools) and will make the student more independent than relying upon UEB or Nemeth would (no need for specialist tools to be able to communicate). If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a mind block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I have two responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the full LaTeX system and documents from various sources as all sorts of commands and macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much easier. Also those who know Braille already have shown the ability to learn a pretty complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I feel its some mental block stopping learning LaTeX. I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an issue. Michael Whapples On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: > Hi all, > A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. > I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille display. We are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. > Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat feature in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed by shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. You can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. > We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have played with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. > With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any work which is already being done to produce one? > Thanks and best wishes, > Matthew > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at From soiffer at alum.mit.edu Tue Apr 28 21:31:10 2026 From: soiffer at alum.mit.edu (Neil Soiffer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:31:10 -0700 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> Message-ID: Accepting Nemeth, UEB, and other braille codes is on the long range plans for MathCAT, but there is nothing scheduled to do that, so it won't happen anytime soon. Michael's suggestion of using ASCIIMath is an option worth exploring. I wrote a paper (to be presented at ICCHP this summer) that looks at Nemeth, UEB, ASCIIMath, and LaTex. 8-dot ASCIIMath is very efficient (uses less braille cells) and thus might be faster to type and maybe faster to read. There are all kinds of caveats to that later statement. For 6-dot codes, Nemeth is clearly the most compact, coming close to 8-dot ASCIIMath. 6-dot ASCIIMath and UEB are comparable in their efficiency. Neil Soiffer On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 12:29 PM Michael Whapples via BlindMath < blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote: > My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the student > does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth probably is > not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset of LaTeX. > As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in ASCIIMath > or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or LaTeX. This will > be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis and other tools) and > will make the student more independent than relying upon UEB or Nemeth > would (no need for specialist tools to be able to communicate). > > > If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes > out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. > > > I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a mind > block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I have two > responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the full LaTeX > system and documents from various sources as all sorts of commands and > macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much easier. Also those > who know Braille already have shown the ability to learn a pretty > complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I feel its some mental > block stopping learning LaTeX. > > > I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro > 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified > (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go > with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an issue. > > > Michael Whapples > > On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: > > Hi all, > > A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. > > I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille display. We > are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not > available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for the > year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. > > Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat feature > in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end up > in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed by > shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. You > can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this window > in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille is converted > into a Microsoft Word equation. > > We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have played > with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good job > of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but so far, > the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille display is by > brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to switch that from > Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate but not sold on math, > so asking him to read math one way and write it another is not something we > really want to suggest and to be honest, even if it's ultimately what we > end up doing in this case, it's not a particularly good indictment for > braille or NVDA and I think it's in our interest as a community to solve > the problem properly. > > With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any work > which is already being done to produce one? > > Thanks and best wishes, > > Matthew > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindMath: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soiffer%40alum.mit.edu > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > From codeofdusk at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 21:35:33 2026 From: codeofdusk at gmail.com (codeofdusk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:35:33 -0700 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> Message-ID: <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> Doesn't the efficiency of ASCIIMath also depend on the underlying language table or Computer Braille standard used (i.e. some computer codes use French numbers, some use dropped a–j)? Bill -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer via BlindMath Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 2:31 PM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Neil Soiffer Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA Accepting Nemeth, UEB, and other braille codes is on the long range plans for MathCAT, but there is nothing scheduled to do that, so it won't happen anytime soon. Michael's suggestion of using ASCIIMath is an option worth exploring. I wrote a paper (to be presented at ICCHP this summer) that looks at Nemeth, UEB, ASCIIMath, and LaTex. 8-dot ASCIIMath is very efficient (uses less braille cells) and thus might be faster to type and maybe faster to read. There are all kinds of caveats to that later statement. For 6-dot codes, Nemeth is clearly the most compact, coming close to 8-dot ASCIIMath. 6-dot ASCIIMath and UEB are comparable in their efficiency. Neil Soiffer On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 12:29 PM Michael Whapples via BlindMath < blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote: > My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the > student does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth > probably is not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset of LaTeX. > As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in > ASCIIMath or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or > LaTeX. This will be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis > and other tools) and will make the student more independent than > relying upon UEB or Nemeth would (no need for specialist tools to be able to communicate). > > > If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes > out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. > > > I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a > mind block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I > have two responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the > full LaTeX system and documents from various sources as all sorts of > commands and macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much > easier. Also those who know Braille already have shown the ability to > learn a pretty complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I > feel its some mental block stopping learning LaTeX. > > > I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro > 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified > (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go > with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an issue. > > > Michael Whapples > > On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: > > Hi all, > > A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. > > I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille > > display. We > are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not > available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for > the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. > > Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat > > feature > in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end > up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed > by > shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. > shift+You > can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this > window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille > is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. > > We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have > > played > with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good > job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but > so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille > display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to > switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate > but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it > another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, > even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a > particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in > our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. > > With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any > > work > which is already being done to produce one? > > Thanks and best wishes, > > Matthew > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > BlindMath: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim > .com > > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soiffer%40alum. > mit.edu > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/codeofdusk%40gmail.com BlindMath Gems can be found at From soiffer at alum.mit.edu Tue Apr 28 21:55:35 2026 From: soiffer at alum.mit.edu (Neil Soiffer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:55:35 -0700 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, kind of. The assumption is that if 8-dot braille is used, regardless of the encoding, all the ASCII chars use only one cell. So for digits, they could use drop numbers (like Nemeth) or use another system (e.g., add dot 8). Other important chars that use a single cell are parens which are used for grouping in ASCIIMath. For LaTeX, it is important that \, {, and } are a single cell. 6-dot LaTeX is very verbose. Neil Soiffer On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 2:35 PM wrote: > Doesn't the efficiency of ASCIIMath also depend on the underlying language > table or Computer Braille standard used (i.e. some computer codes use > French numbers, some use dropped a–j)? > > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer > via BlindMath > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 2:31 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics < > blindmath at nfbnet.org> > Cc: Neil Soiffer > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Accepting Nemeth, UEB, and other braille codes is on the long range plans > for MathCAT, but there is nothing scheduled to do that, so it won't happen > anytime soon. > > Michael's suggestion of using ASCIIMath is an option worth exploring. I > wrote a paper (to be presented at ICCHP this summer) that looks at Nemeth, > UEB, ASCIIMath, and LaTex. 8-dot ASCIIMath is very efficient (uses less > braille cells) and thus might be faster to type and maybe faster to read. > There are all kinds of caveats to that later statement. For 6-dot codes, > Nemeth is clearly the most compact, coming close to 8-dot ASCIIMath. 6-dot > ASCIIMath and UEB are comparable in their efficiency. > > Neil Soiffer > > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 12:29 PM Michael Whapples via BlindMath < > blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote: > > > My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the > > student does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth > > probably is not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset > of LaTeX. > > As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in > > ASCIIMath or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or > > LaTeX. This will be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis > > and other tools) and will make the student more independent than > > relying upon UEB or Nemeth would (no need for specialist tools to be > able to communicate). > > > > > > If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes > > out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. > > > > > > I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a > > mind block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I > > have two responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the > > full LaTeX system and documents from various sources as all sorts of > > commands and macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much > > easier. Also those who know Braille already have shown the ability to > > learn a pretty complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I > > feel its some mental block stopping learning LaTeX. > > > > > > I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro > > 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified > > (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go > > with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an > issue. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. > > > I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille > > > display. We > > are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not > > available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for > > the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. > > > Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat > > > feature > > in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end > > up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed > > by > > shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. > > shift+You > > can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this > > window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille > > is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. > > > We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have > > > played > > with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good > > job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but > > so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille > > display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to > > switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate > > but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it > > another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, > > even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a > > particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in > > our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. > > > With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any > > > work > > which is already being done to produce one? > > > Thanks and best wishes, > > > Matthew > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BlindMath mailing list > > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > BlindMath: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim > > .com > > > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > BlindMath: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soiffer%40alum. > > mit.edu > > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/codeofdusk%40gmail.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> > > From A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz Tue Apr 28 23:45:36 2026 From: A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz (Jonathan Godfrey) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 23:45:36 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello all, I suspect my attitude to effective and efficient use of Braille in mathematical contexts is influenced by the timing of Braille becoming a useful tool for me personally. I therefore accept that there will be others whose experiences during their educational years had Braille before anything mathematically difficult, will be different. Irrespective of the Braille code being used, my number one must have is certainty. I need to know that what I read is what sighted people will see and we'll have a common understanding. To that end, I've investigated and abandoned all options which are experimental, under development, or waiting for developer interest. That includes Nemeth and for that matter UEB for math too. I have consciously and pragmatically migrated everything I do into a simpler way of working that minimises the pain I must endure. For me that is markdown with TeX for mathematical content. I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. I have nursed some legacy LaTeX documents along, and created a few more in order to meet publisher requirements. I must now admit to creating just one MS Excel file in 2025 as an experiment in self-awareness, just to see how bad my old Excel skills were. I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. I am using Braille. 8 dot as it happens, because those \, {, and }, characters already mentioned do matter, as do other brackets and many other characters commonly found in programming languages including but certainly not limited to TeX. Perhaps one of my greatest concerns is that learning any new code is hard if there is not a reliable reference point to explain the new bits. Learning two systems concurrently more than doubles down on this problem as I see it. A consequence of this learning challenge has been the plethora of individual solutions I've seen over the years. I'm sure many of us have done the personal style of notes in some context, and even if it wasn't mathematical, it was not able to be shared. The pragmatist in me says that using a tool that is widely understood means there is a wider pool of talent to call upon. For me, that means using TeX is a better option than investing in UEB or Nemeth for mathematical content. I suggest that society today is much more pragmatic and much less interested in sticking to the old ways. I foresee the eventual demise of Nemeth and for that matter even UEB for maths because the developer talent is not growing to meet the expanding set of needs. In my opinion, the tools that do not keep up will eventually become redundant. I'm also happy to be proven wrong on the eventual demise of UEB and Nemeth for math, because it can only be avoided if the developers do put the necessary love into keeping both codes relevant to the next generation. So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Bill Dengler via BlindMath Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2026 9:36 am To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' Cc: codeofdusk at gmail.com; 'Neil Soiffer' Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA Doesn't the efficiency of ASCIIMath also depend on the underlying language table or Computer Braille standard used (i.e. some computer codes use French numbers, some use dropped a–j)? Bill -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer via BlindMath Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 2:31 PM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Neil Soiffer Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA Accepting Nemeth, UEB, and other braille codes is on the long range plans for MathCAT, but there is nothing scheduled to do that, so it won't happen anytime soon. Michael's suggestion of using ASCIIMath is an option worth exploring. I wrote a paper (to be presented at ICCHP this summer) that looks at Nemeth, UEB, ASCIIMath, and LaTex. 8-dot ASCIIMath is very efficient (uses less braille cells) and thus might be faster to type and maybe faster to read. There are all kinds of caveats to that later statement. For 6-dot codes, Nemeth is clearly the most compact, coming close to 8-dot ASCIIMath. 6-dot ASCIIMath and UEB are comparable in their efficiency. Neil Soiffer On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 12:29 PM Michael Whapples via BlindMath < blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote: > My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the > student does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth > probably is not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset of LaTeX. > As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in > ASCIIMath or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or > LaTeX. This will be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis > and other tools) and will make the student more independent than > relying upon UEB or Nemeth would (no need for specialist tools to be able to communicate). > > > If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes > out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. > > > I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a > mind block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I > have two responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the > full LaTeX system and documents from various sources as all sorts of > commands and macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much > easier. Also those who know Braille already have shown the ability to > learn a pretty complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I > feel its some mental block stopping learning LaTeX. > > > I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro > 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified > (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go > with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an issue. > > > Michael Whapples > > On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: > > Hi all, > > A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. > > I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille > > display. We > are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not > available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for > the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. > > Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat > > feature > in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end > up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed > by > shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. > shift+You > can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this > window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille > is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. > > We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have > > played > with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good > job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but > so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille > display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to > switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate > but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it > another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, > even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a > particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in > our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. > > With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any > > work > which is already being done to produce one? > > Thanks and best wishes, > > Matthew > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfb/ > > net.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C02%7Ca > > .j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C4b355372135b41bd7f9708dea56e46b9%7C38872 > > 8e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C0%7C0%7C639130090231607424%7CUnknown%7 > > CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4 > > zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICK5%2Bsqhk > > 0eYZz8Z0MGM9tLH2FcgxK%2B1Awvmgwaftys%3D&reserved=0 > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > BlindMath: > > > http://nfbne/ > t.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fmwhapples%2540aim&d > ata=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C4b355372135b41bd7f9708dea56 > e46b9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C0%7C0%7C639130090231632612% > 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIl > AiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bq > A%2BnAUF1ypCIKyYYfV%2FTddav9tFSjFbOhDjEQTwxZc%3D&reserved=0 > .com > > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.b/ > lindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40mas > sey.ac.nz%7C4b355372135b41bd7f9708dea56e46b9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf86 > 82e644300%7C0%7C0%7C639130090231651642%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB > 0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsI > ldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HQdfm%2FIryVnPCsdaJXiW%2B9kUxY7cMcC > 6r6nzGPa5o6w%3D&reserved=0> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbne/ > t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.g > odfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C4b355372135b41bd7f9708dea56e46b9%7C388728e1bbd > 0437898dcf8682e644300%7C0%7C0%7C639130090231669420%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ > sb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOI > joiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RUI4F1mMKTOZHletX%2FCcT > 5N88L3mxuTXuZuMfAIDMAA%3D&reserved=0 > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soiffer%40alum. > mit.edu > BlindMath Gems can be found at < > http://www.b/ > lindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40mas > sey.ac.nz%7C4b355372135b41bd7f9708dea56e46b9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf86 > 82e644300%7C0%7C0%7C639130090231704217%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB > 0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsI > ldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=omZulRUfcFhPMw6cLPiUdgOAemIF23O3q8% > 2BO3pjvIOc%3D&reserved=0> > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/codeofdusk%40gmail.com BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz BlindMath Gems can be found at From peter.julien.rayner at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 01:56:47 2026 From: peter.julien.rayner at gmail.com (peter.julien.rayner at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 11:56:47 +1000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by preference and LaTeX when required. >I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be reliable. >So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. regards Peter -- Peter Rayner (he/him) My work days are Monday-Thursday, responses at other times might be slow. The Superpower Institute Level 3 105 Victoria St. Fitzroy 3065 Transparent, actionable and auditable data on Australia's methane emissions mobile +61 402 752 379 zoom id 4431343191, join at mail-to: peter.rayner at superpowerinstitute.com.au google scholar: I acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the land on which I work, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and pay my respect to their Elders, past and present I am sending this email when convenient for me, please only respond when convenient for you From mwhapples at aim.com Wed Apr 29 07:13:00 2026 From: mwhapples at aim.com (Michael Whapples) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 08:13:00 +0100 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89682b8a-53eb-466a-a44d-fcfd920b6f81@aim.com> This is why I suggest 8-dot where for ASCII a 1-to-1 mapping is possible. Of course should someone be dealing with a context which can only handle 6-dots (eg. paper in a perkins) then this 1-to-1 mapping isn't possible and the Braille layer becomes more complicated. Michael Whapples On 28/04/2026 22:35, Bill Dengler via BlindMath wrote: > Doesn't the efficiency of ASCIIMath also depend on the underlying language table or Computer Braille standard used (i.e. some computer codes use French numbers, some use dropped a–j)? > > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer via BlindMath > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 2:31 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Neil Soiffer > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Accepting Nemeth, UEB, and other braille codes is on the long range plans for MathCAT, but there is nothing scheduled to do that, so it won't happen anytime soon. > > Michael's suggestion of using ASCIIMath is an option worth exploring. I wrote a paper (to be presented at ICCHP this summer) that looks at Nemeth, UEB, ASCIIMath, and LaTex. 8-dot ASCIIMath is very efficient (uses less braille cells) and thus might be faster to type and maybe faster to read. > There are all kinds of caveats to that later statement. For 6-dot codes, Nemeth is clearly the most compact, coming close to 8-dot ASCIIMath. 6-dot ASCIIMath and UEB are comparable in their efficiency. > > Neil Soiffer > > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2026 at 12:29 PM Michael Whapples via BlindMath < blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote: > >> My thinking on this may not be the way you were thinking. If the >> student does not want to learn two codes, then I feel UEB or Nemeth >> probably is not the way to go, instead learn ASCIIMath or a basic subset of LaTeX. >> As for the reading, MathCAT I am lead to believe can output in >> ASCIIMath or LaTeX, thus the single code to learn is ASCIIMath or >> LaTeX. This will be useful in so many other places (eg. online wikis >> and other tools) and will make the student more independent than >> relying upon UEB or Nemeth would (no need for specialist tools to be able to communicate). >> >> >> If number of cells is a concern, then in 8-dot Braille ASCIIMath comes >> out really good, LaTeX not quite as good and UEB is pretty poor. >> >> >> I know from my work with BrailleBlaster, transcribers seem to get a >> mind block on LaTeX and it has a reputation for being difficult. I >> have two responses to that: It can be difficult if you get into the >> full LaTeX system and documents from various sources as all sorts of >> commands and macros may be used, but a constrained subset is much >> easier. Also those who know Braille already have shown the ability to >> learn a pretty complicated encoding system in contracted UEB, so I >> feel its some mental block stopping learning LaTeX. >> >> >> I know may not be the answer you wanted to hear. I am very much pro >> 8-dot Braille and would be quite happy to see Braille codes simplified >> (eg. removing contractions). To me this feels such a logical way to go >> with computers and refreshable Braille displays where size isn't an issue. >> >> >> Michael Whapples >> >> On 28/04/2026 15:39, Matthew Horspool via BlindMath wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> A very rusty mathematician here! Nice to be part of the list. >>> I'm supporting a high school student with NVDA and a braille >>> display. We >> are based in the UK where the Student Annual edition of JAWS is not >> available, and the braille display cost them most of their budget for >> the year, so JAWS isn't an option even though we would like it to be. >>> Sticking with JAWS for a moment though: there is a really neat >>> feature >> in JAWS where you can be in a Word document, press a keystroke and end >> up in a math editor. The QWERTY keystroke is JAWS key+space followed >> by >> shift+equals, and braille display keystrokes are usually implemented. >> shift+You >> can use the braille keyboard of your braille display to type in this >> window in either UEB or Nemeth and, when you press enter, the braille >> is converted into a Microsoft Word equation. >>> We are looking for an equivalent option for NVDA. So far I have >>> played >> with the MathCAT implementation in NVDA 2026.1 beta and it does a good >> job of outputting Word equations to a braille display correctly, but >> so far, the closest I've come to being able to input from a braille >> display is by brailing ASCII math and then using the context menu to >> switch that from Linear to Professional. The student is tech literate >> but not sold on math, so asking him to read math one way and write it >> another is not something we really want to suggest and to be honest, >> even if it's ultimately what we end up doing in this case, it's not a >> particularly good indictment for braille or NVDA and I think it's in >> our interest as a community to solve the problem properly. >>> With this in mind, does anyone know of an existing solution or any >>> work >> which is already being done to produce one? >>> Thanks and best wishes, >>> Matthew >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BlindMath mailing list >>> BlindMath at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> BlindMath: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim >> .com >>> BlindMath Gems can be found at < >> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BlindMath mailing list >> BlindMath at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> BlindMath: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soiffer%40alum. >> mit.edu >> BlindMath Gems can be found at < >> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home> >> > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/codeofdusk%40gmail.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at > > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at From mwhapples at aim.com Wed Apr 29 07:39:57 2026 From: mwhapples at aim.com (Michael Whapples) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 08:39:57 +0100 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. Michael Whapples On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by preference > and LaTeX when required. >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > reliable. >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > regards > Peter > From mhorspool at live.co.uk Wed Apr 29 14:01:39 2026 From: mhorspool at live.co.uk (Matthew Horspool) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 14:01:39 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: hi all, thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! His current trojectory is this: 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. Best wishes, Matthew -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 To: blindmath at nfbnet.org Cc: Michael Whapples Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. Michael Whapples On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > preference and LaTeX when required. >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > reliable. >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > regards > Peter > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk BlindMath Gems can be found at From kperry at blinksoft.com Wed Apr 29 15:21:47 2026 From: kperry at blinksoft.com (kperry at blinksoft.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 11:21:47 -0400 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <01d801dcd7eb$e578fc30$b06af490$@blinksoft.com> Have you got quota money? I think you can gget Jaws through APH. -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 10:02 AM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Matthew Horspool Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA hi all, thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! His current trojectory is this: 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. Best wishes, Matthew -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 To: blindmath at nfbnet.org Cc: Michael Whapples Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. Michael Whapples On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > preference and LaTeX when required. >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > reliable. >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > regards > Peter > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.com BlindMath Gems can be found at From mcantino at nwresd.k12.or.us Wed Apr 29 16:30:04 2026 From: mcantino at nwresd.k12.or.us (Michael Cantino) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 09:30:04 -0700 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't disagree with the discussions about LaTeX and 8-dot ASCII entry, but if you want some options to write in Nemeth right now, I have a couple recommendations, albeit imperfect. Desmos supports Nemeth entry. Working problems like this is far from ideal, but it is technically an option. You can write in Nemeth and quickly switch between a print presentation for the teacher and back to braille presentation for writing. The Lake Pines Braille Equalize Editor will also support Nemeth entry and translation to and from Nemeth and print. I haven't checked on this in a while. It's been a little clunky at points in the past, but it's another option you might want to check out. Michael Cantino (he/him) BVIS Technology Specialist Northwest Regional Education Service District (503)614-1339 Check out the BVIS Tech website to find helpful resources! From mcantino at nwresd.k12.or.us Wed Apr 29 16:34:28 2026 From: mcantino at nwresd.k12.or.us (Michael Cantino) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 09:34:28 -0700 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, if I remember correctly, I think some Humanware braille displays will support Nemeth to print translation through KeyMath. iPads/iPhones will also support Nemeth entry, one equation at a time, through the new Braille Access Calculator feature . Michael Cantino (he/him) BVIS Technology Specialist Northwest Regional Education Service District (503)614-1339 Check out the BVIS Tech website to find helpful resources! From steve.noble at louisville.edu Wed Apr 29 20:25:46 2026 From: steve.noble at louisville.edu (Noble, Stephen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 20:25:46 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will also add, as another resource to consider for Nemeth braille input, is Sam Dooley's free Equalize Editor. You can get to it from the Lake Pines Braille | Online Accessible Math | Braille Math Notations webpage. There is guidance there on how to set up the editor to use with NVDA as well as JAWS. --Steve Noble steve.noble at louisville.edu 502-969-3088 (home office land-line phone) ________________________________ From: BlindMath on behalf of Michael Cantino via BlindMath Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 12:34 PM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Michael Cantino Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the contents are safe. Also, if I remember correctly, I think some Humanware braille displays will support Nemeth to print translation through KeyMath. iPads/iPhones will also support Nemeth entry, one equation at a time, through the new Braille Access Calculator feature > . Michael Cantino (he/him) BVIS Technology Specialist Northwest Regional Education Service District (503)614-1339 Check out the BVIS Tech website > to find helpful resources! _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C02%7Csteve.noble%40louisville.edu%7C3b5bfa82fa944bc90dd908dea60d65ef%7Cdd246e4a54344e158ae391ad9797b209%7C0%7C0%7C639130773628581423%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=J310lTpjwdRFhUepYogXQgWQaYFtskZri1LK0LvAFh8%3D&reserved=0 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fsteve.noble%2540louisville.edu&data=05%7C02%7Csteve.noble%40louisville.edu%7C3b5bfa82fa944bc90dd908dea60d65ef%7Cdd246e4a54344e158ae391ad9797b209%7C0%7C0%7C639130773628614207%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iaubvTVFdvOP71C4rzaA8yHpYH4NKfr0MfIAwtOJKnY%3D&reserved=0 BlindMath Gems can be found at > From A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz Wed Apr 29 20:40:33 2026 From: A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz (Jonathan Godfrey) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 20:40:33 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. All the best, Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Matthew Horspool Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA hi all, thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! His current trojectory is this: 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. Best wishes, Matthew -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 To: blindmath at nfbnet.org Cc: Michael Whapples Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. Michael Whapples On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > preference and LaTeX when required. >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > reliable. >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > regards > Peter > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz BlindMath Gems can be found at From john.gardner at viewplus.com Wed Apr 29 23:22:11 2026 From: john.gardner at viewplus.com (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 23:22:11 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. John Gardner -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Jonathan Godfrey Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. All the best, Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Matthew Horspool Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA hi all, thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! His current trojectory is this: 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. Best wishes, Matthew -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 To: blindmath at nfbnet.org Cc: Michael Whapples Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. Michael Whapples On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > preference and LaTeX when required. >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > reliable. >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > regards > Peter > _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40viewplus.com BlindMath Gems can be found at From aklacy at tamu.edu Wed Apr 29 23:38:20 2026 From: aklacy at tamu.edu (Amanda Lacy) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2026 18:38:20 -0500 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: I learned math, history and literature, and contracted Braille right along with it. It really wasn't that hard. I was fortunate to get a laptop in elementary school so as I learned to type, I had to spell out every word. I currently use a 40-cell Braille display. I use 8-dot Braille (ASCII Braille) to read math and computer code, and contracted Braille to read English, e.g. for emails like this. It's absolutely easier and faster and takes up less space on my Braille display. When I'm reading English and it's in 8-dot Braille, I notice it because it's slower. It can't help but be slower, since I have to touch significantly more characters and scroll more often. I'm also familiar with Spanish Braille, which as you pointed out doesn't have contractions. If it works for them, great, but why should we have to give up a good thing because they don't use it everywhere? > On Apr 29, 2026, at 6:22 PM, John Gardner via BlindMath wrote: > > This Message Is From an External Sender > This message came from outside your organization. > Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. > If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is > what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. > But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. > Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. > John Gardner > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > > Cc: Jonathan Godfrey > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, > > I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. > > I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. > > My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. > > The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. > > I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. > > All the best, > Jonathan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath > Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > > Cc: Matthew Horspool > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > hi all, > > thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! > > His current trojectory is this: > > 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. > 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. > 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. > > His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. > > JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. > > To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. > > So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. > > Best wishes, > > Matthew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath > Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org > Cc: Michael Whapples > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > > > I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. > > > > > > For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. > > > > > > Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > > > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > > > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. > > >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > > > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > > > preference and LaTeX when required. > > >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > > > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable > > > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be > > > reliable. > > >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > > > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't > > > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > > > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > > > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > > > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > > > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > > > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > > > regards > > > Peter > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool*40live.co.uk__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwm3ABjGAY$ > > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey*40massey.ac.nz__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmM2EhfeI$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner*40viewplus.com__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwm3swRVqw$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/aklacy*40tamu.edu__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmjmuiQMw$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at From john.gardner at viewplus.com Thu Apr 30 00:39:14 2026 From: john.gardner at viewplus.com (John Gardner) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2026 00:39:14 +0000 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Amanda, if all blind kids were as smart, as industrious, and as STEM-oriented as you, we would have lots to discuss, but we wouldn't be having this particular discussion. John -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Amanda Lacy via BlindMath Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 4:38 PM To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics Cc: Amanda Lacy Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I learned math, history and literature, and contracted Braille right along with it. It really wasn't that hard. I was fortunate to get a laptop in elementary school so as I learned to type, I had to spell out every word. I currently use a 40-cell Braille display. I use 8-dot Braille (ASCII Braille) to read math and computer code, and contracted Braille to read English, e.g. for emails like this. It's absolutely easier and faster and takes up less space on my Braille display. When I'm reading English and it's in 8-dot Braille, I notice it because it's slower. It can't help but be slower, since I have to touch significantly more characters and scroll more often. I'm also familiar with Spanish Braille, which as you pointed out doesn't have contractions. If it works for them, great, but why should we have to give up a good thing because they don't use it everywhere? > On Apr 29, 2026, at 6:22 PM, John Gardner via BlindMath wrote: > > This Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside > your organization. > Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. > If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted > braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. > But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. > Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. > John Gardner > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey > via BlindMath > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > > > Cc: Jonathan Godfrey > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, > > I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. > > I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. > > My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. > > The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. > > I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. > > All the best, > Jonathan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool > via BlindMath > Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > > > Cc: Matthew Horspool > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > hi all, > > thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! > > His current trojectory is this: > > 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. > 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. > 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. > > His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. > > JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. > > To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. > > So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. > > Best wishes, > > Matthew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath > On Behalf Of Michael Whapples > via BlindMath > Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org > Cc: Michael Whapples > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > > > I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. > > > > > > For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. > > > > > > Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > > > I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case > > > plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. > > >> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. > > > Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by > > > preference and LaTeX when required. > > >> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. > > > Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and > > presentable > > > automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will > > be > > > reliable. > > >> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? > > > For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I > > don't > > > find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic > > > relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into > > > another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the > > > going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my > > > cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille > > > labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. > > > regards > > > Peter > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindma > th_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7Z > uKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat > h_nfbnet.org/mhorspool*40live.co.uk__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QM > pFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwm3ABjGAY$ > > BlindMath Gems can be found at > s-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn7 > 0ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmxJM8VVY$> > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindma > th_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7Z > uKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat > h_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey*40massey.ac.nz__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0c > M7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmM2EhfeI$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at > s-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn7 > 0ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmxJM8VVY$> > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindma > th_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7Z > uKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat > h_nfbnet.org/john.gardner*40viewplus.com__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0 > cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwm3swRVqw$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at > s-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn7 > 0ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmxJM8VVY$> > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindma > th_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7Z > uKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmkutaKfs$ > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat > h_nfbnet.org/aklacy*40tamu.edu__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr > 67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn70ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmjmuiQMw$ > BlindMath Gems can be found at > s-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!Hz109243zMtld0cM7QMpFxVr67Rn-clJc-tfsYk8q7ZuKEtDn7 > 0ITCoYJ3lsxOEA8P91_Fmn5lwmxJM8VVY$> _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40viewplus.com BlindMath Gems can be found at From mwhapples at aim.com Thu Apr 30 10:35:22 2026 From: mwhapples at aim.com (Michael Whapples) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2026 11:35:22 +0100 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <344690af-a938-4c49-96b6-af4269a64698@aim.com> I wouldn't say that is a stupid thing to say, my view is very much along the same line. However I do note for me Braille has always been a second language to me, I learnt large print and touch typing before Braille. I feel this means I am always translating in my head and it feels awkward, I do not natively think in Braille. It may be different for someone who learnt Braille first. Additionally for me there is the issue I learnt contracted Braille prior to UEB, that introduced a load of changes and as I already was well on the 8-dot computer Braille path by that point, UEB has essentially been the death of official contracted Braille codes for my own personal use. We all have different history which may affect our feelings on this, but I do think if ability to communicate widely is a goal then UEB doesn't make much sense (only a small minority of people can read/write, otherwise you are reliant on a limited set of specialist tools or professional transcribers). In contrast as a touchtyping text native, I can use almost any computer (a Dvorak keyboard may challenge me) to communicate with someone else. Where I would like to get with a Braille code would be: * No contractions * No modes (IE. numbers are their own thing thus getting rid of the number sign). * 1-to-1 mapping for the most common used characters (IE. in English ASCII in most 8-dot computer codes) * Multi-cell possible for less frequently used characters. * Leave formatting and other non-character based things to standard mark up languages like markdown, ASCIIMath, LaTeX, etc. * Let the user pick and mix the combination of cell encodings and mark up language which suits their case. * Never store Braille in a file, the conversion should be simple enough and reliable enough to be done as close to the users fingers. A thought I have had for the representation of characters in Braille is something along the line of UTF-8. 8-dot Braille has the 8-dots, every possible byte combination can be represented, UTF-8 just extends it into the full unicode character set (each cell being the bytes of the UTF-8 string). UTF-8 possibly is not the best assignments to be human logical (eg. Braille unicode characters start at \xe2\a0\80 for \u2800 and end with \xe2\a3\bf for \u28ff). However I think UTF-8 serves as a good example of where I am trying to head and at least would still present a way of getting the character value for lookup. Also depending upon the mark up language some commonly used unicode characters may also be possible through that (eg. Greek letters in ASCIIMath or LaTeX). Michael Whapples On 30/04/2026 00:22, John Gardner via BlindMath wrote: > Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. > If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is > what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. > But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. > Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. > John Gardner > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Jonathan Godfrey > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, > > I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. > > I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. > > My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. > > The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. > > I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. > > All the best, > Jonathan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath > Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Matthew Horspool > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > hi all, > > thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! > > His current trojectory is this: > > 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. > 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. > 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. > > His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. > > JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. > > To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. > > So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. > > Best wishes, > > Matthew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath > Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org > Cc: Michael Whapples > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > > > I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. > > > > > > For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. > > > > > > Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > >> I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case >> plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >>> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. >> Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by >> preference and LaTeX when required. >>> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. >> Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable >> automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be >> reliable. >>> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? >> For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't >> find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic >> relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into >> another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the >> going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my >> cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille >> labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. >> regards >> Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk > > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz > BlindMath Gems can be found at > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40viewplus.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at From mwhapples at aim.com Thu Apr 30 10:35:22 2026 From: mwhapples at aim.com (Michael Whapples) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2026 11:35:22 +0100 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <344690af-a938-4c49-96b6-af4269a64698@aim.com> I wouldn't say that is a stupid thing to say, my view is very much along the same line. However I do note for me Braille has always been a second language to me, I learnt large print and touch typing before Braille. I feel this means I am always translating in my head and it feels awkward, I do not natively think in Braille. It may be different for someone who learnt Braille first. Additionally for me there is the issue I learnt contracted Braille prior to UEB, that introduced a load of changes and as I already was well on the 8-dot computer Braille path by that point, UEB has essentially been the death of official contracted Braille codes for my own personal use. We all have different history which may affect our feelings on this, but I do think if ability to communicate widely is a goal then UEB doesn't make much sense (only a small minority of people can read/write, otherwise you are reliant on a limited set of specialist tools or professional transcribers). In contrast as a touchtyping text native, I can use almost any computer (a Dvorak keyboard may challenge me) to communicate with someone else. Where I would like to get with a Braille code would be: * No contractions * No modes (IE. numbers are their own thing thus getting rid of the number sign). * 1-to-1 mapping for the most common used characters (IE. in English ASCII in most 8-dot computer codes) * Multi-cell possible for less frequently used characters. * Leave formatting and other non-character based things to standard mark up languages like markdown, ASCIIMath, LaTeX, etc. * Let the user pick and mix the combination of cell encodings and mark up language which suits their case. * Never store Braille in a file, the conversion should be simple enough and reliable enough to be done as close to the users fingers. A thought I have had for the representation of characters in Braille is something along the line of UTF-8. 8-dot Braille has the 8-dots, every possible byte combination can be represented, UTF-8 just extends it into the full unicode character set (each cell being the bytes of the UTF-8 string). UTF-8 possibly is not the best assignments to be human logical (eg. Braille unicode characters start at \xe2\a0\80 for \u2800 and end with \xe2\a3\bf for \u28ff). However I think UTF-8 serves as a good example of where I am trying to head and at least would still present a way of getting the character value for lookup. Also depending upon the mark up language some commonly used unicode characters may also be possible through that (eg. Greek letters in ASCIIMath or LaTeX). Michael Whapples On 30/04/2026 00:22, John Gardner via BlindMath wrote: > Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. > If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is > what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. > But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. > Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. > John Gardner > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Jonathan Godfrey > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, > > I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. > > I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. > > My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. > > The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. > > I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. > > All the best, > Jonathan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath > Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Matthew Horspool > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > hi all, > > thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! > > His current trojectory is this: > > 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. > 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. > 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. > > His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. > > JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. > > To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. > > So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. > > Best wishes, > > Matthew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath > Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org > Cc: Michael Whapples > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > > > I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. > > > > > > For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. > > > > > > Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > >> I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case >> plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >>> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. >> Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by >> preference and LaTeX when required. >>> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. >> Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable >> automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be >> reliable. >>> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? >> For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't >> find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic >> relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into >> another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the >> going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my >> cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille >> labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. >> regards >> Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk > > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz > BlindMath Gems can be found at > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40viewplus.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at From kperry at blinksoft.com Thu Apr 30 11:06:30 2026 From: kperry at blinksoft.com (kperry at blinksoft.com) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2026 07:06:30 -0400 Subject: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA In-Reply-To: <344690af-a938-4c49-96b6-af4269a64698@aim.com> References: <943f2e28-29f9-40fe-bb9e-28494120fe3e@aim.com> <031301dcd756$f1e50670$d5af1350$@gmail.com> <27121.25951.426997.399414@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <344690af-a938-4c49-96b6-af4269a64698@aim.com> Message-ID: <026501dcd891$66201b70$32605250$@blinksoft.com> I agree with everything you propose. -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2026 6:35 AM To: blindmath at nfbnet.org Cc: Michael Whapples Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA I wouldn't say that is a stupid thing to say, my view is very much along the same line. However I do note for me Braille has always been a second language to me, I learnt large print and touch typing before Braille. I feel this means I am always translating in my head and it feels awkward, I do not natively think in Braille. It may be different for someone who learnt Braille first. Additionally for me there is the issue I learnt contracted Braille prior to UEB, that introduced a load of changes and as I already was well on the 8-dot computer Braille path by that point, UEB has essentially been the death of official contracted Braille codes for my own personal use. We all have different history which may affect our feelings on this, but I do think if ability to communicate widely is a goal then UEB doesn't make much sense (only a small minority of people can read/write, otherwise you are reliant on a limited set of specialist tools or professional transcribers). In contrast as a touchtyping text native, I can use almost any computer (a Dvorak keyboard may challenge me) to communicate with someone else. Where I would like to get with a Braille code would be: * No contractions * No modes (IE. numbers are their own thing thus getting rid of the number sign). * 1-to-1 mapping for the most common used characters (IE. in English ASCII in most 8-dot computer codes) * Multi-cell possible for less frequently used characters. * Leave formatting and other non-character based things to standard mark up languages like markdown, ASCIIMath, LaTeX, etc. * Let the user pick and mix the combination of cell encodings and mark up language which suits their case. * Never store Braille in a file, the conversion should be simple enough and reliable enough to be done as close to the users fingers. A thought I have had for the representation of characters in Braille is something along the line of UTF-8. 8-dot Braille has the 8-dots, every possible byte combination can be represented, UTF-8 just extends it into the full unicode character set (each cell being the bytes of the UTF-8 string). UTF-8 possibly is not the best assignments to be human logical (eg. Braille unicode characters start at â 0\80 for ⠀ and end with â 3f for ⣿). However I think UTF-8 serves as a good example of where I am trying to head and at least would still present a way of getting the character value for lookup. Also depending upon the mark up language some commonly used unicode characters may also be possible through that (eg. Greek letters in ASCIIMath or LaTeX). Michael Whapples On 30/04/2026 00:22, John Gardner via BlindMath wrote: > Every once in a while something triggers me to say something really stupid. This conversation has done that. It is stupid for me to even say it. But the really stupid thing is contracted braille. I know history, I know how this happened, but it doesn't make it right. Braille is just way too complicated and blind kids' education is the victim. Most intelligent people in blindness education know that if we had only to teach kids uncontracted braille, we would have time to teach them other things, things like math, history, literature. Things they don't learn because they spend so much time in special education classes learning that b is sometimes b and sometimes but and sometimes 2 and... Intelligent people however also know that there isn't a damned thing that can be done about it, so they just shut up and do their best . We had a golden chance to do something about it a few decades ago, and we very nearly did it, but in the end we blew it and developed something called Unified English Braille. Which is braille and is English to be sure but is no more unified and at best marginally easier than the system it replaced. > If we had a braille alphabet (not a code) similar to uncontracted braille but with numbers, blind people's lives would be so much easier. Don't give me crap about saving paper and reading faster. We don't often use paper for large braille documents anymore, and it just isn't true that contracted braille is faster to read than uncontracted braille. What is faster is > what you know, so of course most blind Americans today read contracted braille faster. But I bet that blind Spaniards and Italians on average read faster than Americans, because they read uncontracted braille and even people struggling with braille can read it faster than they could if it was contracted. > But what about math? Seems to me that ASCII math works for sighted people and should work just as well for blind people. For the near vanishingly small number of us who insist on math that gets beyond what ASCII math can do, we'll need something more complete. That is an important question of course, but it has nothing to do with the present discussion. Which wouldn't ever have arisen in the scenario I just painted. > Okay, tomorrow morning I will regret writing this stupid letter, but right now I just got a weight off my shoulders for a while. > John Gardner > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2026 1:41 PM > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Jonathan Godfrey > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew, > > I don't profess to understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick. > > I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options. > > My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc. > > The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life. > > I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general. > > All the best, > Jonathan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath > Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics > Cc: Matthew Horspool > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > hi all, > > thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though! > > His current trojectory is this: > > 1. Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else. > 2. Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too. > 3. Leave high school and never touch maths again. > > His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system. > > JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does. > > To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent. > > So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget. > > Best wishes, > > Matthew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BlindMath On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath > Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40 > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org > Cc: Michael Whapples > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA > > > > I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code. > > > > > > For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper. > > > > > > Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths. > > > > > > Michael Whapples > > > > On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote: > >> I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case >> plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer. >>> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade. >> Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by >> preference and LaTeX when required. >>> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job. >> Again I agree. I do not expect semantically accurate and presentable >> automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be >> reliable. >>> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people? >> For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't >> find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic >> relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into >> another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the >> going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my >> cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille >> labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years. >> regards >> Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > > BlindMath mailing list > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mhorspool%40live.co.uk > > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz > BlindMath Gems can be found at > > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40viewplus.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at > _______________________________________________ > BlindMath mailing list > BlindMath at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com > BlindMath Gems can be found at _______________________________________________ BlindMath mailing list BlindMath at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.com BlindMath Gems can be found at