[BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA

Wed Apr 29 20:40:33 UTC 2026

Thanks for the expansion on the student's circumstances Matthew,

I don't profess to  understand the grading scheme, but recognise that some minimum level of mathematical competence is commonly expressed in each locale using a locally understood yardstick.

I'm fascinated by the idea that the student is somewhat forced to learn UEB maths because that's what the hardcopy will be. I assume this is not a decision that is for the student to make, whether that be because his local support has made decisions or the centralised production house is doing hardcopy Braille the same way for all blind students. My fascination comes not because I believe the student should choose a different format, but that it is likely the student is not put in a position to assess their best pathway to success and therefore could make them less effective or efficient in a time-constrained exam setting because they are not given options.

My second interest arising from your message is the awareness that some mathematical competence is needed in order to improve employment prospects. It is a battle I've faced and lost too many times. Insufficient mathematical competence in the support structures can lead to diminished effort and an early exit to all things mathematical for young people who do not yet understand how critical the skills taught in mathematics classes are. I'm not talking about the ability to differentiate, integrate and things that are only mathematical, but the skills of applying rules, logic, and reasoning that mathematically competent people do differently to people who lack those skills. Then there is also the notion that more employment opportunities exist for blind people who can handle numeric data, spreadsheets, etc.

The practice of breaking problems down into manageable constituent parts is seldom seen in other high school subjects. It is a skill that I believe more young blind people who struggle to retain details in encyclopaedic fashion (the mere mortals) would benefit from, regardless of the profession they hope to enter later in life.

I hope your encouragement and support improves the outlook this young person has on anything mathematical and high school in general.

All the best,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Matthew Horspool via BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2026 2:02 am
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Matthew Horspool <mhorspool at live.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA

hi all,

thanks for the robust debate. I was hoping (perhaps naively) not to go down that track, as I at ve heard a lot of the arguments before and can sympathise with all viewpoints. It will certainly be interesting to see where we end up. It doesn't help our high school student though!

His current trojectory is this:

  1.  Learn maths in high school because he has to. He will enjoy it as much as anyone enjoys school, but would much rather be studying something else.
  2.  Take maths GCSE, He absolutely must get a grade 5 or above otherwise his job prospects will be jeopardised. His exam papers will be given to him in hard copy UEB grade 2 with UEB maths, so he has no choice but to learn UEB maths, and to this end he would quite like to write out his answers in UEB maths too.
  3.  Leave high school and never touch maths again.

His BrailleNote Touch Plus can accept UEB maths input and translate it into Word equations. This is the solution he is currently using, but the BrailleNote Touch Plus is deficient in most other areas, so we want to move him onto a computer-based system.

JAWS has feature parity with the BrailleNote Touch Plus in terms of UEB maths translation. I don't know how it does it, but somehow it does.

To my knowledge, NVDA does not have the same feature parity. My question was simply whether or not such feature parity could be achieved, either through a core feature unknown to me or an add-on. The fact that this has turned into a debate about the usefulness of braille, rather than a series of answers to the original question I asked, suggests to me that the answer is no, since if the answer was yes, we would not have needed to go down this tangent.

So, thank you for indirectly answering my question, enjoy the rest of the debate, and I will tell them to buy JAWS when they get a new budget.

Best wishes,

Matthew

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michael Whapples via BlindMath
Sent: 29 April 2026 08:40
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Braille Input with NVDA

I am on the same page regarding the text based formats. Specifically to Peter's conclusions. I get what you say regarding the backslashes, braces, etc in LaTeX, I guess that is where I feel ASCIIMath has its advantage. However I do appreciate ASCIIMath is a subset and has its limitations and sometimes LaTeX is needed for advanced cases. Also with 8-dot Braille and the 1-to-1 mapping I do find myself doing a lot more spatial layout in code.

For personal working where the writing is not to be read by anyone else, then there is no need to follow a strict official code, you can always have your own shorthand or other modifications. This applies both electronically or on paper.

Finally the big thing with this is the freedom it gives. You aren't locked to a specific screen reader, in fact it works about everywhere, from Linux text consoles, to Windows or Macs and even on mobile devices should you feel the need. Also its been working and accessible for ages, LaTeX more than 20 years, ASCIIMath from what I can tell first got discussed in 2007. This is what I meant in my independence comment, you aren't reliant on others or specific tools being available to communicate. Even without the ASCIIMath JavaScript to create the presentation MathML, its probably readable enough in code form by most people who understand the maths.

Michael Whapples

On 29/04/2026 02:56, Peter Rayner via BlindMath wrote:

> I completely endorse the pragmatism of JG's approach but my use case

> plus my limited capabilities have me arriving at a different answer.

>> I also think context matters. I have not created any MS Word or Power Point files in the last decade.

> Likewise, I only generate upstream text-based content, org-mode by

> preference and LaTeX when required.

>> I do watch what others are doing, just in case things change and somehow things improve enough to make me revisit my self-imposed choices. I doubt anyone would say that the state of Braille codes for maths are at an totally acceptable standard today. The problem of what gets put in vs what gets put out is just one area of shortcomings that if I'm honest, would seriously compromise my ability to be employed in my current job.

> Again I agree. I do not expect  semantically accurate and presentable

> automated translation of braille mathematics into visual form will be

> reliable.

>> So, to the die hard Braille code for maths people, what is it that you think will ensure the ongoing relevance of codes which are only used by blind people?

> For me it's the need to do mathematics rather than present it. I don't

> find brailled LaTeX compact enough to reveal the symbolic

> relationships necessary to transform one algebraic expression into

> another. I will still use spatial layout to support this when the

> going gets especially tough. I accept this as an indictment of my

> cognitive capacity but it is what it is. Braille maths and braille

> labels have been the only uses for my Perkins for the last 25 years.

> regards

> Peter

>

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