[Blindtlk] blindtlk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 6
Pat Gormley
kk3f at msn.com
Wed Jun 3 13:33:54 UTC 2009
I do know somebody who went from a dog to a cane. He did so because he had
to go on travel with the Federal Govervnment and his dog was left behind at
his mom's and it apparently did something because it also suffered from
separation anxiety and my friend Mike who will be rejoining the nfb soon
indicated that he didn't want to have the responsibility of maintaining a
dog so he turned it back in to the seeing eye. As it turns out, he's been
around Federationists who are good travelers and he didn't realize that he
was as good a traveler as he actually is. I think the real problem here is
that people who get guide dogs don't maintain their cane skills and then
when the dog becomes sick, they're having to take valuable time off because
their independence has been compromised.
----- Original Message -----
From: <blindtlk-request at nfbnet.org>
To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:59 AM
Subject: blindtlk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 6
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Marty James)
> 2. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Graves, Diane)
> 3. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
> (Constance Canode)
> 4. Re: Counting Steps (seville allen)
> 5. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Mike Sivill)
> 6. Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please Help!
> (Eric Calhoun)
> 7. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Merry Schoch)
> 8. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Merry Schoch)
> 9. Re: Guide Dog then Came (Anthony N. Colon)
> 10. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language (gloria)
> 11. Re: Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please
> Help! (Cindy Handel)
> 12. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language (Jim)
> 13. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
> (Steve P. Deeley)
> 14. Re: Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please
> Help! (clinton waterbury)
> 15. Re: Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please
> Help! (clinton waterbury)
> 16. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
> (Kathleen Millhoff)
> 17. NBP-Announce: Using the Accessible iPod, by Anna Dresner
> (Tony Grima)
> 18. couple in Florida affiliate looking for a room at convention
> (Sherrill O'Brien)
> 19. Re: Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language (Gary Wunder)
> 20. Re: Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please
> Help! (Cindy Handel)
> 21. Re: Urgent request! Please help! (dewey bradley)
> 22. Re: Alternative Philosophies (trishs)
> 23. Re: my intro (trishs)
> 24. Re: Gary wunder: Alternative Spirituality (trishs)
> 25. Re: Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company (Mike Freeman)
> 26. Re: Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company
> (Amanda Robertson)
> 27. Let us not forget to be human: was: Re: Other "wrong"
> assumptions; Learning body language (Ray Foret jr)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:00:16 -0500
> From: "Marty James" <blindamp at q.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP9C8250CF43C9F6D4C2B86D54D0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I lost my sight in 2004 but I lost my left leg at the same time. I have a
> prosthetic but I have no balance with it. I can not walk outside of a
> known
> building without being on a lead. I am having problems with my prosthetic
> now and am in a chair most of the time. I had to fight a long battle to
> get
> a power chair. The insurance and Medicare didn't think a blind person
> could
> use a power chair, but I won. Now, due to neuropathy in my hands, cane
> sensitivity is not so good. I am in the process of getting a dog for
> mobility with a power chair.
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
>
>> Good Morning to All,
>>
>> I don't mean to shift the focus at all. Please continue to submit
>> answers to Anthony's question, but I would also be interested in
>> reversing that question. I do know this is a touchy subject for some, so
>> please understand that my interest is genuine, and I'm asking solely for
>> my own informational purposes and mobility considerations.,
>>
>> I am wondering what types of things have prompted someone to go from
>> cane use, to dog use, and why it is that they have come to prefer the
>> dog method. What is it that you get from a dog that you don't feel you
>> get from a cane?
>>
>> I have considered the switch before, and my main reason was the barrier
>> I thought it might put between myself and all the crazies out here who
>> are up to no good. Of course, we all know that these dogs are not
>> trained as attack dogs or anything remotely like that. But most of the
>> uneducated sighted public doesn't know that. Most people think that
>> they are. So I thought it might offer some protection in that realm.
>>
>> But of course, we would probably also agree that things get a little
>> more complicated when you have to deal with the responsibility of, and
>> the introduction of a dog into your life, and the lives of others and so
>> forth, so I have always elected not to take the plunge. But I'm just
>> wondering, from a mobility standpoint, what do you all see as the
>> advantages, or, disadvantages of a dog versus a cane.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diane Graves
>> Civil Rights Specialist
>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>> 317-232-2647
>>
>> "IT is service that measures success."
>> George Washington Carver
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
>> individual or entity(ies)
>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>> acting in reliance
>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
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>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Anthony N. Colon
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:59 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>> Hi, has anyone out there gone from using a guide dog to just using the
>> white
>> cane? If you have would you share your reason for doing so?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:27:14 -0400
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <F0F0FC930F4D704CA935A9204C1250B1025AF397 at IOTEVSP02VW.shared.state.in.us>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thank you guys for these great responses. I really appreciate the
> feedback, and would love to hear more.
>
> One question that I have always had is, without the cane, how do you
> determine exactly what you are dealing with? For instance, I know that
> the dog is trained to stop when it comes to a curb or set of steps. But
> how do you know whether you are dealing with a curb, a set of steps, or
> whether there is a 30 foot drop-off in front of you? You know what I
> mean? With a cane, I can reach out and kind of gauge what I've got, but
> I've never quite understood how you would do this with a dog?
>
> Or if you tell them "outside" and they take you to the door, are they
> trained to stop facing the door, or with out the tactile cues of a cane,
> how do you know where the door or trash can or whatever you might be
> looking for is? I hope these questions aren't sounding too crazy, but
> this has also influenced my decision when considering a transition,
> because I wasn't sure how these things would be dealt with.
>
>
>
> Diane Graves
> Civil Rights Specialist
> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
> 317-232-2647
>
> "IT is service that measures success."
> George Washington Carver
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
> individual or entity(ies)
> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
> acting in reliance
> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Merry Schoch
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:51 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
> Hi Diane,
>
> When I received my first guide I had only been blind 9 months. At that
> time
> the school told me I had been the first student to attend that had only
> been
> blind for such a short time. You are correct that these dogs are not
> trained to attack or guard us; however, dogs are a deterrent to crime
> whether they be with you on the streets or in your home. When I was
> learning to use a white cane I took my pet with me on her leash because
> of
> the crime deterrent factor.
>
> I have always loved dogs so deciding to use a guide dog was based on
> this
> fact as well as the crime deterrent. Was I very knowledgable when I
> made
> this decision, no, but I am glad I made the decision to use the dog.
> There
> are a few things I have notice with myself as well as with other guide
> dog
> users. The fact that the dog will go around obstacles instead of you
> finding them with your cane and then going around the obstacle seems to
> make
> travelling with a dog, for some, easier. I, personally, believe that
> one
> should have good cane skills to be a good guide dog users. It is
> evident
> when watching some guide dog users that their skills in both modes of
> travel
> is poor.
>
> Back to comparing the two modes. Dogs can be trained to find things
> such as
> doors (glass buildings can be tricky), chairs, bus benches, trash cans,
> etc.
> This skill can be helpful especially in unfamiliar areas.
>
> I have travelled without a dog for 1 1/2 years. I am going to start Grad
>
> school in the Fall and was told yesterday, yeah, that I would have my
> new
> guide before then. I am using the dog because of the deterrent factor,
> late
> classes in not so good of an area of town, but also because I am once
> again
> ready for the responsibility, companionship, but most of all using this
> mode
> of travel. When I use a dog and trust the dog, I don't have to focus as
>
> much on avoiding obstacles, curbs, etc. I let the dog handle that.
> Lazy,
> maybe (big grin)!
>
> Dogs are not for everyone. There is more work and responsibility when
> using
> a dog. Can't hang the dog up on a hook when you get home!! Canes don't
>
> break your heart either. Dogs have the expense factor as well.
>
> JMHO and experience,
> Merry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
>
>> Good Morning to All,
>>
>> I don't mean to shift the focus at all. Please continue to submit
>> answers to Anthony's question, but I would also be interested in
>> reversing that question. I do know this is a touchy subject for some,
> so
>> please understand that my interest is genuine, and I'm asking solely
> for
>> my own informational purposes and mobility considerations.,
>>
>> I am wondering what types of things have prompted someone to go from
>> cane use, to dog use, and why it is that they have come to prefer the
>> dog method. What is it that you get from a dog that you don't feel
> you
>> get from a cane?
>>
>> I have considered the switch before, and my main reason was the
> barrier
>> I thought it might put between myself and all the crazies out here who
>> are up to no good. Of course, we all know that these dogs are not
>> trained as attack dogs or anything remotely like that. But most of
> the
>> uneducated sighted public doesn't know that. Most people think that
>> they are. So I thought it might offer some protection in that realm.
>>
>> But of course, we would probably also agree that things get a little
>> more complicated when you have to deal with the responsibility of, and
>> the introduction of a dog into your life, and the lives of others and
> so
>> forth, so I have always elected not to take the plunge. But I'm just
>> wondering, from a mobility standpoint, what do you all see as the
>> advantages, or, disadvantages of a dog versus a cane.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diane Graves
>> Civil Rights Specialist
>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>> 317-232-2647
>>
>> "IT is service that measures success."
>> George Washington Carver
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for
> the
>> individual or entity(ies)
>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>> acting in reliance
>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Anthony N. Colon
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:59 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>> Hi, has anyone out there gone from using a guide dog to just using the
>> white
>> cane? If you have would you share your reason for doing so?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>> .in.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40veriz
> on.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> .in.gov
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:25:37 -0500
> From: Constance Canode <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090602162359.022e6ff8 at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the
> bus to work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my
> makeup. I was in a rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog
> did it with her long tail. She believed it. Again as you already
> said, here's your sign.
>
> Connie Canode
> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you
>>know, find your mouth with your fork...?
>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing
>>line around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I
>>just follow th line up to my mouth.
>>
>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a
>>blind dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the
>>glasses and led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in
>>itself...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>
>>Marty
>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded
>>>me of the following incident:
>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of
>>>them asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered
>>>me, though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention
>>>it still made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of
>>>work needs to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't
>>>well-known or even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list;
>>>ai always learn a lot from you guys.
>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you
>>>blind from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I
>>>sometimes get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the
>>>sighted world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while
>>>eating or doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to
>>>speak.
>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head
>>>clockwise or counterclockwise?
>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind
>>>from birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when
>>>I first introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of
>>>Prematurity like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>Gerardo
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindtlk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindtlk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:37:48 -0400
> From: "seville allen" <ceoallen at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
> To: "'Gary Wunder'" <gwunder at earthlink.net>, "'Blind Talk Mailing
> List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <BCC956373FDA495282EAD3D5981A1DE3 at Allen>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Great, so then you can smell your way home.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Gary Wunder
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:31 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
>
> Good morning Seville. Yes, sometimes they are eaten by birds and the mice,
> but, being the considerate creatures they are, they leave other trinkets
> with their own aroma to point the way.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "seville allen" <ceoallen at verizon.net>
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
>
>
>> Wow! Great, and the bread crumbs don't blow away or get eaten by the
>> birds,
>> mice or rats? Well, you will understand why I asked as I've been through
>> rehab six times, so now you know how successful mobility and literature
>> have
>> been for me. Rehab won't open a VR case for me another time.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gary Wunder
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:00 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
>>
>> Seville, this kind of question could only come from someone who has no
>> experience with mobility or literature. The answer is so obvious I'm
>> embarrassed to say it here on the list, but, alas, here is my secret! I
>> leave breadcrumbs!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "seville allen" <ceoallen at verizon.net>
>> To: "'Marion & Martin'" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>; "'Blind Talk Mailing
>> List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
>>
>>
>>> Gary, what happens if you are counting steps and forget how many, do you
>>> have to return to the beginning and start over? And if the number of
>>> steps
>>> taken is forgotten, how do you get back to the beginning?
>>> (smile)
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:50 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Counting Steps
>>>
>>> Gary,
>>> It seemed to me that the first mention of counting steps was
>>> referring
>>> to actual, literal steps up or down in a venue like a ballpark or
>>> concert
>>> hall, not the steps taken by a person one foot in front of the other.
>>> I've
>>> never counted my steps before; rather, I have relied upon other physical
>>> cues. I guess if it works, then it is a valid technique.
>>>
>>> Fraternally,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting. I've honestly, never tried the technique. Good to know
>>>> it
>>>> can work. I assumed it had been disproven, or at least, not
>>>> encouraged.
>>>> Well. We know what happens when one does that assume thing?
>>>> Hi. I'm Trish.
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net
>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:21:41 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>When one counts steps, he doesn't count the steps of others - he
>>>> counts his
>>>>>own. There may indeed be some variability even with ones own
>>>> steps but it is
>>>>>not significant. If I think something is forty steps from the
>>>> turn, I start
>>>>>looking for my door at step 38.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:23 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I thought counting steps went out 100-years-ago, when the "mental
>>>> giants,
>>>>>>so called experts" figured out that not everyones steps were
>>>> equal or
>>>>>>always the same measure of stride? Looking on the bright side,
>>>> we'll
>>>>>>always be called to educate. Changing the world, one ignant mofo
>>>> at a
>>>>>>time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:44:25 -0700
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh, yeah, I hate that one. I remember being taught in the first
>>>>>> grade to
>>>>>>>count steps, and then in the third grade or so, I started being
>>>>>> taught to
>>>>>>>use a cane, and I have never counted steps since. I hate it when
>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>think that we count steps, and I suspect that the reason that one
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>people in the school faculty wanted me to learn to count steps is
>>>>>> that they
>>>>>>>didn't know that blind people didn't do that, because they
>>>>>> weren't exposed
>>>>>>>to blind people before me, as I was the only blind person in the
>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>Sarah
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com
>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:51 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allot of blind people like to touch because the blind schools
>>>>>> never told
>>>>>>>> them that you can't do that.
>>>>>>>> I know with the one I whent to did that, The parants will let
>>>>>> the schools
>>>>>>>> raise the kids.
>>>>>>>> I know of allot of people that came out, and they will touch and
>>>>>> rock, and
>>>>>>>> shake there heads all the time, and people see that and think we
>>>>>> are all
>>>>>>>> like that.
>>>>>>>> Or they think we count steps.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>; "NFBnet Blind Talk
>>>>>> Mailing
>>>>>>>> List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:51 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look "normal?" That's open to individual interpffetation. I,
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately, think it sucks to appear blind, or worse, to
>>>>>> appear blind
>>>>>>>>> and helpless, or lost. I realize that these are manageable
>>>>>> stresses, but
>>>>>>>>> man! That'll weigh on a Soul!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:41:55 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Can you ever say that again Trish.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>This very morning, for example, I was at the doctor's office
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>officially discharged, (from an auto accident in which I was) and
>>>>>>>>> I heard
>>>>>>>>>>the receptionist saying "hi". Her face was turned to me, and so,
>>>>>>>>> I reckoned
>>>>>>>>>>she was addressing me; but no. She was talking on the phone. I
>>>>>>>>> guess maybe
>>>>>>>>>>turning one's face toward the person just isn't enough sometimes;
>>>>>>>>> but, I
>>>>>>>>>>think that it stands you a better chance of looking normal if you
>>>>>>>>> do so.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>So far as touching is concerned, My girlfriend just loves a nice
>>>>>>>>> very long
>>>>>>>>>>rub on the soles of her callused constantly bare feet; but, I
>>>>>>>>> don't go for
>>>>>>>>>>the stereotypical blind monster who has only sockets for eyes and
>>>>>>>>> feels all
>>>>>>>>>>over people's faces; yuck!!!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>>>>>>>>> abroad you
>>>>>>>>>>come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from
>>>>>>>>> your own land"
>>>>>>>>>>George Seferis
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Phone or Fax::
>>>>>>>>>>+1 (985) 360-3614
>>>>>>>>>>Cell:
>>>>>>>>>>+1 (985) 719-2938
>>>>>>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>>rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>>>>>>>>>Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I hate it when that happens! I walk to the appointment desk, the
>>>>>>>>>>lady behind it says "hi", I start to state my name, and the
>>>>>>>>>>person I'm with says "she's on the phone." Grrrr!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:21:43 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Diane,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I am not a person who readily hugs or touches others. But, I
>>>>>>>>>>don't mind if
>>>>>>>>>>>someone touches my arm or wants a hug. I think, when it comes to
>>>>>>>>>>someone,
>>>>>>>>>>>like a waitress speaking, it would be easier if they would touch
>>>>>>>>>>a shoulder
>>>>>>>>>>>or my hand. There have been times when someone is talking to me,
>>>>>>>>>>but I
>>>>>>>>>>>didn't know it, or they might have been talking to someone else,
>>>>>>>>>>near me,
>>>>>>>>>>>and I respond. That's sometimes difficult. Most of the time,
>>>>>>>>>>you can tell
>>>>>>>>>>>if someone is looking toward you when they're speaking. But, if
>>>>>>>>>>there's
>>>>>>>>>>>someone else, in the same direction, it's hard to know,
>>>>>>>>>>specifically, who
>>>>>>>>>>>they're looking at.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is turning out to be a very interesting topic.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>HI Paul,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is an interesting topic and it also gets pretty complicated,
>>>>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>>>>>least where I am concerned.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>As far as your question about making that initial contact, I
>>>>>>>>>>would say
>>>>>>>>>>>it is very appropriate. I would most certainly prefer a light
>>>>>>>>>>touch on
>>>>>>>>>>>my shoulder than having someone talk to someone who is with me,
>>>>>>>>>>>inquiring as to what I might like to order, as if I weren't
>>>>>>>>>>there, or as
>>>>>>>>>>>if I were a child. I do not object to this at all.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I have noted in this discussion that there are several people who
>>>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>said they don't like to be touched. I have the opposite problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>Whether it has anything to do with blindness or not, I really
>>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>>know, but I am a person who is tactile, and or affectionate with
>>>>>>>>>>people
>>>>>>>>>>>that I know.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is gotten me crossways with several people, as I have
>>>>>>>>>>learned,
>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes the hard way, that some of us don't' appreciate being
>>>>>>>>>>touched.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>As a tactile person myself, that is something that I have a real
>>>>>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>>>time fathoming or remembering. I don't grab and cling to
>>>>>>>>>>strangers by
>>>>>>>>>>>any means, but when there is a person who I know, like or
>>>>>>>>>>associate
>>>>>>>>>>>with, it is not uncommon for me to reach out and want to hug
>>>>>>>>>>someone or
>>>>>>>>>>>look at their hairstyle, or place a hand gently on their arm or
>>>>>>>>>>shoulder
>>>>>>>>>>>when speaking to them. I also welcome warm handshakes, hugs, and
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>like from those whom I consider friends and associates. I have
>>>>>>>>>>had to
>>>>>>>>>>>learn that some people object to this, and it isn't always easy
>>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>remember.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Now, like I said, it gets complicated, because what I do object
>>>>>>>>>>to is
>>>>>>>>>>>those well meaning sighted people, many of them strangers, who
>>>>>>>>>>want to
>>>>>>>>>>>grab me or my clothes or coat or whatever, thinking that they are
>>>>>>>>>>>helping to guide me or saving me from falling off a curb or
>>>>>>>>>>something
>>>>>>>>>>>like that.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>There is a lady who does this every day at the bus stop in the
>>>>>>>>>>evening,
>>>>>>>>>>>and I just want to slap her sometimes. They wouldn't take
>>>>>>>>>>liberties
>>>>>>>>>>>with and/or manhandle a sighted person like that, and I do not
>>>>>>>>>>>appreciate it either.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Diane Graves
>>>>>>>>>>>Civil Rights Specialist
>>>>>>>>>>>Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>>>>>>>>>>Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>>>>>>>>>>317-232-2647
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"IT is service that measures success."
>>>>>>>>>>>George Washington Carver
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>>>>>>>>>>confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only
>>>>>>>>>>for the
>>>>>>>>>>>individual or entity(ies)
>>>>>>>>>>>named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended
>>>>>>>>>>recipient, be
>>>>>>>>>>>advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution,
>>>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>>>>acting in reliance
>>>>>>>>>>>upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
>>>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to
>>>>>>>>>>sender to
>>>>>>>>>>>arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>>>>>>>>>>Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Weingartner, Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:02 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting topic that is very helpful because of the
>>>>>>>>>>>candidness of the respondents. Because of that I would like to
>>>>>>>>>>ask a
>>>>>>>>>>>question.
>>>>>>>>>>>Sighted people use eye contact to initiate communication.
>>>>>>>>>>Obviously,
>>>>>>>>>>>that does not work for initiating communication with a person who
>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>>blind. That is why it is awkward for a waitress in a restaurant
>>>>>>>>>>or for
>>>>>>>>>>>a stranger in a mall to make first contact in a way to know the
>>>>>>>>>>speaker
>>>>>>>>>>>is addressing the person who is blind.
>>>>>>>>>>>A number of totally blind friends recommend a light quick touch
>>>>>>>>>>to let
>>>>>>>>>>>them know they are the person being addressed, so that is what I
>>>>>>>>>>>recommend. I was wondering what some or you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>Also, many people who are totally blind like to hold and cling
>>>>>>>>>>during a
>>>>>>>>>>>conversation. That can get pretty awkward and down right
>>>>>>>>>>embarrassing a
>>>>>>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>>>>>>I would appreciate your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Weingartner
>>>>>>>>>>>Making the Cross Accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
>>>>>>>>>>>P 417.831.1964 F 417.862.5120
>>>>>>>>>>>www.blind.ag.org
>>>>>>>>>>>www.blindonline.ag.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:47 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>It has nothing to do with blindness in my case. I just hate
>>>>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>>>>>touched.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us
>>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>putting
>>>>>>>>>>>> there hands on us.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be
>>>>>>>>>>touched,
>>>>>>>>>>>When
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like
>>>>>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a very complicated topic. There are those, like me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I
>>>>>>>>>>really
>>>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know very well. I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
>>>>>>>>>>>spacial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> concepts during conversations. You don't want to be too close
>>>>>>>>>>during
>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation or too far away. I suspect most of us who
>>>>>>>>>>understand
>>>>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they
>>>>>>>>>>trust.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite germ spreading! I like the bowing idea a lot!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I love these kinds of topics. I believe the issue of blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or not. It comes down more to how comfortable you are with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>communication. In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yurself to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>paradigm. This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> donw with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>initiative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and often. When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers. This calls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>attention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>older
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my Asian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>greatful.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joel
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychologist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My vision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace. I drove a car until I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40. Now, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception. When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out to shake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing. Eventually, I learned to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by taking the initiative. On occasion I reach out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no experience with the touching. There are cultural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonverbal behaviors. For example, cultures vary in terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarded as personal space. Groups vary in terms of how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others. Perhaps your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has led you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> felt bad for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> departed. There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindisms. We all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in front of others. There is a tendency, particularly if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loses their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by what others can see. We assume that if we can't see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something others can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not either. This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performing these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grooming rituals in public. Recently, I have noticed that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am walking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking. I am working on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppressing this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strange. Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> odd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted person, I
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When do you do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this? If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary, since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're participating in the conversation. I think we've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away. Now, if
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still there
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I have met sighted people who talk with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and touch my
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis. So, that might not be so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unusual.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RP; since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago. I'm still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there but aren't there. How have you coped with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in that you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to shake if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5%40verizon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/jzimba%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40cavtel.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slos
> s
>> e
>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>info
>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>>>>>deeley%
>>>>>>>>>>>40insightbb.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>-------
>>>>>>>>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release
>>>>>>>>>>Date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05/24/09
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07:09:00
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:54:33 -0700
> From: "Mike Sivill" <mike.sivill at viewplus.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <20090602215219.1C9074ADAEB at mail.viewplus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Excuse me for laughing when I read this. Of course you can reach out your
> hand and touch if you expect to find a door/wall. Typically for ground
> level
> stuff you reach out with your left foot to feel if something is there. But
> after a long time of working your dog you'll get accustomed to their body
> language and know what they're doing like Plato would slow to a painful
> creep right before an overhead obstacle and stop abruptly and sort of turn
> his head toward me at ground level things.
> Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Graves, Diane
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:27 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
> Thank you guys for these great responses. I really appreciate the
> feedback, and would love to hear more.
>
> One question that I have always had is, without the cane, how do you
> determine exactly what you are dealing with? For instance, I know that
> the dog is trained to stop when it comes to a curb or set of steps. But
> how do you know whether you are dealing with a curb, a set of steps, or
> whether there is a 30 foot drop-off in front of you? You know what I
> mean? With a cane, I can reach out and kind of gauge what I've got, but
> I've never quite understood how you would do this with a dog?
>
> Or if you tell them "outside" and they take you to the door, are they
> trained to stop facing the door, or with out the tactile cues of a cane,
> how do you know where the door or trash can or whatever you might be
> looking for is? I hope these questions aren't sounding too crazy, but
> this has also influenced my decision when considering a transition,
> because I wasn't sure how these things would be dealt with.
>
>
>
> Diane Graves
> Civil Rights Specialist
> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
> 317-232-2647
>
> "IT is service that measures success."
> George Washington Carver
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
> individual or entity(ies)
> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
> acting in reliance
> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Merry Schoch
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:51 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
> Hi Diane,
>
> When I received my first guide I had only been blind 9 months. At that
> time
> the school told me I had been the first student to attend that had only
> been
> blind for such a short time. You are correct that these dogs are not
> trained to attack or guard us; however, dogs are a deterrent to crime
> whether they be with you on the streets or in your home. When I was
> learning to use a white cane I took my pet with me on her leash because
> of
> the crime deterrent factor.
>
> I have always loved dogs so deciding to use a guide dog was based on
> this
> fact as well as the crime deterrent. Was I very knowledgable when I
> made
> this decision, no, but I am glad I made the decision to use the dog.
> There
> are a few things I have notice with myself as well as with other guide
> dog
> users. The fact that the dog will go around obstacles instead of you
> finding them with your cane and then going around the obstacle seems to
> make
> travelling with a dog, for some, easier. I, personally, believe that
> one
> should have good cane skills to be a good guide dog users. It is
> evident
> when watching some guide dog users that their skills in both modes of
> travel
> is poor.
>
> Back to comparing the two modes. Dogs can be trained to find things
> such as
> doors (glass buildings can be tricky), chairs, bus benches, trash cans,
> etc.
> This skill can be helpful especially in unfamiliar areas.
>
> I have travelled without a dog for 1 1/2 years. I am going to start Grad
>
> school in the Fall and was told yesterday, yeah, that I would have my
> new
> guide before then. I am using the dog because of the deterrent factor,
> late
> classes in not so good of an area of town, but also because I am once
> again
> ready for the responsibility, companionship, but most of all using this
> mode
> of travel. When I use a dog and trust the dog, I don't have to focus as
>
> much on avoiding obstacles, curbs, etc. I let the dog handle that.
> Lazy,
> maybe (big grin)!
>
> Dogs are not for everyone. There is more work and responsibility when
> using
> a dog. Can't hang the dog up on a hook when you get home!! Canes don't
>
> break your heart either. Dogs have the expense factor as well.
>
> JMHO and experience,
> Merry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
>
>> Good Morning to All,
>>
>> I don't mean to shift the focus at all. Please continue to submit
>> answers to Anthony's question, but I would also be interested in
>> reversing that question. I do know this is a touchy subject for some,
> so
>> please understand that my interest is genuine, and I'm asking solely
> for
>> my own informational purposes and mobility considerations.,
>>
>> I am wondering what types of things have prompted someone to go from
>> cane use, to dog use, and why it is that they have come to prefer the
>> dog method. What is it that you get from a dog that you don't feel
> you
>> get from a cane?
>>
>> I have considered the switch before, and my main reason was the
> barrier
>> I thought it might put between myself and all the crazies out here who
>> are up to no good. Of course, we all know that these dogs are not
>> trained as attack dogs or anything remotely like that. But most of
> the
>> uneducated sighted public doesn't know that. Most people think that
>> they are. So I thought it might offer some protection in that realm.
>>
>> But of course, we would probably also agree that things get a little
>> more complicated when you have to deal with the responsibility of, and
>> the introduction of a dog into your life, and the lives of others and
> so
>> forth, so I have always elected not to take the plunge. But I'm just
>> wondering, from a mobility standpoint, what do you all see as the
>> advantages, or, disadvantages of a dog versus a cane.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diane Graves
>> Civil Rights Specialist
>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>> 317-232-2647
>>
>> "IT is service that measures success."
>> George Washington Carver
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for
> the
>> individual or entity(ies)
>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>> acting in reliance
>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Anthony N. Colon
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:59 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>> Hi, has anyone out there gone from using a guide dog to just using the
>> white
>> cane? If you have would you share your reason for doing so?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>> .in.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40veriz
> on.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
> .in.gov
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/mike.sivill%40view
> plus.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:57:58 -0500
> From: Eric Calhoun <eric at pmpmail.com>
> Subject: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request!
> Please Help!
> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20090602215953.8EB3E2AF9E1 at node-lease1.smtp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Cindy and Beverly: Christy is under the impression that the whole town of
> Montgomery, Pa., is under Windstream. Humorously, Clinton, if Christy is
> using the toll-free 888 number for NFB Newsline, she is baited and
> switched
> as well.
>
> It appears that Windstream has jurisdiction over the people of
> Montgomery. And, Jim Antonicci has been notified; I've yet to hear a
> response from him.
>
> There's no competition when a small town is dominated by a small company.
> I agree: Christy does have choices. I would say, even if she's told to
> switch to A.T.&T., (something she may be forced to do), she may have no
> other choice.
>
> In going to www.windstream.com, and clicking on "Terms And Conditions," I
> found these "Terms" flawed. For example: If you're on that service, any
> line, deemed to be a "chat Line" you may not call. That includes the
> aforementioned Mytelespace. You may not call any long-distance numbers
> for
> NFB Newsline, because it considered to be an "Information Line."
> Windstream reserves the right to call you, without notice, and, "harass"
> you over the phone, on your bill! I'll stop now, but read the T&C and see
> for yourself.
>
> Eric, Who is Thankful for All Responses
>
> P.S. I also was given a number over at the American Association for
> People with Disabilities. I'm going to wait till I hear from Jim first.
>
> Eric
> --
>
> --
>
> Want to eee-lectrify your summer? Want to find out about future Major
> Leaguers, and independent Minor-Leaguers? The Baseball List is your
> answer! To join, please send an email, to eric at pmpmail.com, and put,
> "Eric, I'd like to join your baseball list," in the subject line!
>
> Eric from Los Angeles! Remember! It's not the size of the dog in the
> fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
>
> Eric from Los Angeles!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:07:49 -0400
> From: "Merry Schoch" <merrys at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <EFA54F56F89F4164950BB4202525235C at D365VC51>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Oh, Diane, you've asked my favorite question, and I just love to
> demonstrate
> this when doing presentations. To determine why you dog has stopped you
> reach out with foot or arm (since the dog will determine overhangs as
> well)
> to see exactly what's up. If you are not familiar with an area, and don't
> know if you are dealing with curb, steps. loading dock, etc. this is where
> the commands help and also intelligent disobedience (which I love to
> practice).
>
> I am going to demonstrate by telling you the commands I have learned they
> may vary depending on school. Dog stops...feels like a curb...I tell my
> dog
> forward...dogs goes up or down depending of course if up or down curb.
> Dog
> stops...feels like curb...tell dog to go forward...dog doesn't move...tap
> curb with foot (or what I think is curb)...tell the dog to go
> forward...dog
> doesn't move. I now realize the dog is smarter than me (big grin) and
> tell
> the dog "forward up" or "forward down" and then dog moves...we are at
> steps/stairs. None of that works and the dogs says to itself this person
> just doesn't get it and body blocks you or pulls you backwards then...you
> are probably at a loading dock or another type of drop off.
>
> That's my experience and training with both my dogs!! Audiences love to
> see
> the dog disobey in an intelligent fashion.
>
> Merry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
>
>> Thank you guys for these great responses. I really appreciate the
>> feedback, and would love to hear more.
>>
>> One question that I have always had is, without the cane, how do you
>> determine exactly what you are dealing with? For instance, I know that
>> the dog is trained to stop when it comes to a curb or set of steps. But
>> how do you know whether you are dealing with a curb, a set of steps, or
>> whether there is a 30 foot drop-off in front of you? You know what I
>> mean? With a cane, I can reach out and kind of gauge what I've got, but
>> I've never quite understood how you would do this with a dog?
>>
>> Or if you tell them "outside" and they take you to the door, are they
>> trained to stop facing the door, or with out the tactile cues of a cane,
>> how do you know where the door or trash can or whatever you might be
>> looking for is? I hope these questions aren't sounding too crazy, but
>> this has also influenced my decision when considering a transition,
>> because I wasn't sure how these things would be dealt with.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diane Graves
>> Civil Rights Specialist
>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>> 317-232-2647
>>
>> "IT is service that measures success."
>> George Washington Carver
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
>> individual or entity(ies)
>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>> acting in reliance
>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Merry Schoch
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:51 AM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>> Hi Diane,
>>
>> When I received my first guide I had only been blind 9 months. At that
>> time
>> the school told me I had been the first student to attend that had only
>> been
>> blind for such a short time. You are correct that these dogs are not
>> trained to attack or guard us; however, dogs are a deterrent to crime
>> whether they be with you on the streets or in your home. When I was
>> learning to use a white cane I took my pet with me on her leash because
>> of
>> the crime deterrent factor.
>>
>> I have always loved dogs so deciding to use a guide dog was based on
>> this
>> fact as well as the crime deterrent. Was I very knowledgable when I
>> made
>> this decision, no, but I am glad I made the decision to use the dog.
>> There
>> are a few things I have notice with myself as well as with other guide
>> dog
>> users. The fact that the dog will go around obstacles instead of you
>> finding them with your cane and then going around the obstacle seems to
>> make
>> travelling with a dog, for some, easier. I, personally, believe that
>> one
>> should have good cane skills to be a good guide dog users. It is
>> evident
>> when watching some guide dog users that their skills in both modes of
>> travel
>> is poor.
>>
>> Back to comparing the two modes. Dogs can be trained to find things
>> such as
>> doors (glass buildings can be tricky), chairs, bus benches, trash cans,
>> etc.
>> This skill can be helpful especially in unfamiliar areas.
>>
>> I have travelled without a dog for 1 1/2 years. I am going to start Grad
>>
>> school in the Fall and was told yesterday, yeah, that I would have my
>> new
>> guide before then. I am using the dog because of the deterrent factor,
>> late
>> classes in not so good of an area of town, but also because I am once
>> again
>> ready for the responsibility, companionship, but most of all using this
>> mode
>> of travel. When I use a dog and trust the dog, I don't have to focus as
>>
>> much on avoiding obstacles, curbs, etc. I let the dog handle that.
>> Lazy,
>> maybe (big grin)!
>>
>> Dogs are not for everyone. There is more work and responsibility when
>> using
>> a dog. Can't hang the dog up on a hook when you get home!! Canes don't
>>
>> break your heart either. Dogs have the expense factor as well.
>>
>> JMHO and experience,
>> Merry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>>
>>> Good Morning to All,
>>>
>>> I don't mean to shift the focus at all. Please continue to submit
>>> answers to Anthony's question, but I would also be interested in
>>> reversing that question. I do know this is a touchy subject for some,
>> so
>>> please understand that my interest is genuine, and I'm asking solely
>> for
>>> my own informational purposes and mobility considerations.,
>>>
>>> I am wondering what types of things have prompted someone to go from
>>> cane use, to dog use, and why it is that they have come to prefer the
>>> dog method. What is it that you get from a dog that you don't feel
>> you
>>> get from a cane?
>>>
>>> I have considered the switch before, and my main reason was the
>> barrier
>>> I thought it might put between myself and all the crazies out here who
>>> are up to no good. Of course, we all know that these dogs are not
>>> trained as attack dogs or anything remotely like that. But most of
>> the
>>> uneducated sighted public doesn't know that. Most people think that
>>> they are. So I thought it might offer some protection in that realm.
>>>
>>> But of course, we would probably also agree that things get a little
>>> more complicated when you have to deal with the responsibility of, and
>>> the introduction of a dog into your life, and the lives of others and
>> so
>>> forth, so I have always elected not to take the plunge. But I'm just
>>> wondering, from a mobility standpoint, what do you all see as the
>>> advantages, or, disadvantages of a dog versus a cane.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Diane Graves
>>> Civil Rights Specialist
>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>> 317-232-2647
>>>
>>> "IT is service that measures success."
>>> George Washington Carver
>>>
>>>
>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for
>> the
>>> individual or entity(ies)
>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>>> acting in reliance
>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Anthony N. Colon
>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:59 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>>
>>> Hi, has anyone out there gone from using a guide dog to just using the
>>> white
>>> cane? If you have would you share your reason for doing so?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>>> .in.gov
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40veriz
>> on.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>> .in.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:14:08 -0400
> From: "Merry Schoch" <merrys at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <5B8C9FC377B74FAB9E5D6C77EC43854F at D365VC51>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Sorry, I didn't respond to part II of your questions.
>
> Again, my experiences...my dogs would put their heads under the door knob
> or
> handles as well as elevator buttons. My Vizsla and Lab both thought I was
> telling them to find heaven when I'd tell them to find the "trash can",
> but
> I only used the word "can", that they would get their heads real close to
> the can. Now, sometimes trash cans are disguised in a fancy way in
> certain
> malls or parks so the dog may not quite get that, but usually they do very
> well.
>
> When I received my first dog, I was told I could put a nail in a telephone
> pole and show the dog and then the dog could return to it . I was taught
> the technique of teaching the dog how to find new things while I was in
> class. You may have to do this a few times. I was very lucky with my
> first
> dog. His trainer told me that he was amazing and all you would have to do
> was show him something once. She was right. I could not have been more
> lucky to have gotten such a great dog the first time; he just didn't work
> long enough.
>
> Merry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>
>
>> Thank you guys for these great responses. I really appreciate the
>> feedback, and would love to hear more.
>>
>> One question that I have always had is, without the cane, how do you
>> determine exactly what you are dealing with? For instance, I know that
>> the dog is trained to stop when it comes to a curb or set of steps. But
>> how do you know whether you are dealing with a curb, a set of steps, or
>> whether there is a 30 foot drop-off in front of you? You know what I
>> mean? With a cane, I can reach out and kind of gauge what I've got, but
>> I've never quite understood how you would do this with a dog?
>>
>> Or if you tell them "outside" and they take you to the door, are they
>> trained to stop facing the door, or with out the tactile cues of a cane,
>> how do you know where the door or trash can or whatever you might be
>> looking for is? I hope these questions aren't sounding too crazy, but
>> this has also influenced my decision when considering a transition,
>> because I wasn't sure how these things would be dealt with.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diane Graves
>> Civil Rights Specialist
>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>> 317-232-2647
>>
>> "IT is service that measures success."
>> George Washington Carver
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
>> individual or entity(ies)
>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>> acting in reliance
>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Merry Schoch
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:51 AM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>> Hi Diane,
>>
>> When I received my first guide I had only been blind 9 months. At that
>> time
>> the school told me I had been the first student to attend that had only
>> been
>> blind for such a short time. You are correct that these dogs are not
>> trained to attack or guard us; however, dogs are a deterrent to crime
>> whether they be with you on the streets or in your home. When I was
>> learning to use a white cane I took my pet with me on her leash because
>> of
>> the crime deterrent factor.
>>
>> I have always loved dogs so deciding to use a guide dog was based on
>> this
>> fact as well as the crime deterrent. Was I very knowledgable when I
>> made
>> this decision, no, but I am glad I made the decision to use the dog.
>> There
>> are a few things I have notice with myself as well as with other guide
>> dog
>> users. The fact that the dog will go around obstacles instead of you
>> finding them with your cane and then going around the obstacle seems to
>> make
>> travelling with a dog, for some, easier. I, personally, believe that
>> one
>> should have good cane skills to be a good guide dog users. It is
>> evident
>> when watching some guide dog users that their skills in both modes of
>> travel
>> is poor.
>>
>> Back to comparing the two modes. Dogs can be trained to find things
>> such as
>> doors (glass buildings can be tricky), chairs, bus benches, trash cans,
>> etc.
>> This skill can be helpful especially in unfamiliar areas.
>>
>> I have travelled without a dog for 1 1/2 years. I am going to start Grad
>>
>> school in the Fall and was told yesterday, yeah, that I would have my
>> new
>> guide before then. I am using the dog because of the deterrent factor,
>> late
>> classes in not so good of an area of town, but also because I am once
>> again
>> ready for the responsibility, companionship, but most of all using this
>> mode
>> of travel. When I use a dog and trust the dog, I don't have to focus as
>>
>> much on avoiding obstacles, curbs, etc. I let the dog handle that.
>> Lazy,
>> maybe (big grin)!
>>
>> Dogs are not for everyone. There is more work and responsibility when
>> using
>> a dog. Can't hang the dog up on a hook when you get home!! Canes don't
>>
>> break your heart either. Dogs have the expense factor as well.
>>
>> JMHO and experience,
>> Merry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>
>>
>>> Good Morning to All,
>>>
>>> I don't mean to shift the focus at all. Please continue to submit
>>> answers to Anthony's question, but I would also be interested in
>>> reversing that question. I do know this is a touchy subject for some,
>> so
>>> please understand that my interest is genuine, and I'm asking solely
>> for
>>> my own informational purposes and mobility considerations.,
>>>
>>> I am wondering what types of things have prompted someone to go from
>>> cane use, to dog use, and why it is that they have come to prefer the
>>> dog method. What is it that you get from a dog that you don't feel
>> you
>>> get from a cane?
>>>
>>> I have considered the switch before, and my main reason was the
>> barrier
>>> I thought it might put between myself and all the crazies out here who
>>> are up to no good. Of course, we all know that these dogs are not
>>> trained as attack dogs or anything remotely like that. But most of
>> the
>>> uneducated sighted public doesn't know that. Most people think that
>>> they are. So I thought it might offer some protection in that realm.
>>>
>>> But of course, we would probably also agree that things get a little
>>> more complicated when you have to deal with the responsibility of, and
>>> the introduction of a dog into your life, and the lives of others and
>> so
>>> forth, so I have always elected not to take the plunge. But I'm just
>>> wondering, from a mobility standpoint, what do you all see as the
>>> advantages, or, disadvantages of a dog versus a cane.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Diane Graves
>>> Civil Rights Specialist
>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>> 317-232-2647
>>>
>>> "IT is service that measures success."
>>> George Washington Carver
>>>
>>>
>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>> confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only for
>> the
>>> individual or entity(ies)
>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>>> acting in reliance
>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Anthony N. Colon
>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:59 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
>>>
>>> Hi, has anyone out there gone from using a guide dog to just using the
>>> white
>>> cane? If you have would you share your reason for doing so?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>>> .in.gov
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40veriz
>> on.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc
>> .in.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/merrys%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:16:29 -0500
> From: "Anthony N. Colon" <tcolon1955 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Guide Dog then Came
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <1BFBCDCF8BFB4D40855B8BFD92702DE5 at anthony>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hi Diane,
> Your questions are very valid ones. They would all be answered at a guide
> dog school, but if you don't want to get that far before making a
> decision,
> the Hadley School for the blind in the Chicago area has a course for those
> who are curious if a guide dog is for them. I could tell you that a good
> guide dog is not going to lead you off a cliff. My guides both saved me
> from injury more than once. I am sure that others on the list have
> similar
> experiences with their guides.
>
> Take care,
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:30:47 -0700
> From: "gloria" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <DD06C5DEEB2F485786E71A694542A915 at homeea072beeeb>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The stupidity of sighted people!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Constance Canode
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:26 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the bus to
> work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my makeup. I was in a
> rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog did it with her long
> tail.
> She believed it. Again as you already said, here's your sign.
>
> Connie Canode
> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you know,
>>find your mouth with your fork...?
>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing line
>>around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I just
>>follow th line up to my mouth.
>>
>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a blind
>>dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the glasses and
>>led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in itself...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>
>>Marty
>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded me
>>>of the following incident:
>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of them
>>>asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered me,
>>>though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention it still
>>>made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of work needs
>>>to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't well-known or
>>>even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list; ai always learn a
>>>lot from you guys.
>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you blind
>>>from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I sometimes
>>>get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the sighted
>>>world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while eating or
>>>doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to speak.
>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head clockwise
>>>or counterclockwise?
>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind from
>>>birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when I first
>>>introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of Prematurity
>>>like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>Gerardo
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>blindtlk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q
>>>.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>blindtlk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40
>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/fairyfoot%40webban
> d.com
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2148 - Release Date: 06/02/09
> 06:47:00
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:11:02 -0400
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent
> Request! Please Help!
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <9AF38419FD324EC89EA9560FF55473F9 at cindy2e65cf610>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Eric,
>
> I went to look at the Wind Stream website. In looking around, I
> discovered
> that they are the telephone company for the town where my sister lives. I
> can tell you, for a fact, that I have called NFB Newsline's toll-free
> telephone number, with no problem, from my sister's house. So, there's
> definitely some confusion, here.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Calhoun" <eric at pmpmail.com>
> To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request! Please
> Help!
>
>
> Cindy and Beverly: Christy is under the impression that the whole town of
> Montgomery, Pa., is under Windstream. Humorously, Clinton, if Christy is
> using the toll-free 888 number for NFB Newsline, she is baited and
> switched
> as well.
>
> It appears that Windstream has jurisdiction over the people of
> Montgomery. And, Jim Antonicci has been notified; I've yet to hear a
> response from him.
>
> There's no competition when a small town is dominated by a small company.
> I agree: Christy does have choices. I would say, even if she's told to
> switch to A.T.&T., (something she may be forced to do), she may have no
> other choice.
>
> In going to www.windstream.com, and clicking on "Terms And Conditions," I
> found these "Terms" flawed. For example: If you're on that service, any
> line, deemed to be a "chat Line" you may not call. That includes the
> aforementioned Mytelespace. You may not call any long-distance numbers
> for
> NFB Newsline, because it considered to be an "Information Line."
> Windstream reserves the right to call you, without notice, and, "harass"
> you over the phone, on your bill! I'll stop now, but read the T&C and see
> for yourself.
>
> Eric, Who is Thankful for All Responses
>
> P.S. I also was given a number over at the American Association for
> People with Disabilities. I'm going to wait till I hear from Jim first.
>
> Eric
> --
>
> --
>
> Want to eee-lectrify your summer? Want to find out about future Major
> Leaguers, and independent Minor-Leaguers? The Baseball List is your
> answer! To join, please send an email, to eric at pmpmail.com, and put,
> "Eric, I'd like to join your baseball list," in the subject line!
>
> Eric from Los Angeles! Remember! It's not the size of the dog in the
> fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
>
> Eric from Los Angeles!
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:34:14 -0700
> From: "Jim" <jp100 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <003401c9e3da$a410a620$ec31f260$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> You know...all of this stuff happens to all of us, and I've gotten snappy
> with people too.
> However, while these comments are somewhat funny and show that we're also
> jerks, I'd really love to read more about how people deal with Gerardo's
> main question dealing with body language and social behavior.
> People are ignorant, and many times, we feed right into their ignorance
> with
> our smart comments. But, seriously, I think Gerardo has a great topic and
> I'd like to see this thread deal more with it.
>
> Jim Portillo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Constance Canode
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:26 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the
> bus to work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my
> makeup. I was in a rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog
> did it with her long tail. She believed it. Again as you already
> said, here's your sign.
>
> Connie Canode
> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you
>>know, find your mouth with your fork...?
>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing
>>line around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I
>>just follow th line up to my mouth.
>>
>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a
>>blind dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the
>>glasses and led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in
> itself...
>>Here's your sign!!
>>
>>Marty
>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded
>>>me of the following incident:
>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of
>>>them asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered
>>>me, though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention
>>>it still made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of
>>>work needs to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't
>>>well-known or even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list;
>>>ai always learn a lot from you guys.
>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you
>>>blind from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I
>>>sometimes get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the
>>>sighted world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while
>>>eating or doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to
> speak.
>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head
>>>clockwise or counterclockwise?
>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind
>>>from birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when
>>>I first introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of
>>>Prematurity like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>Gerardo
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindtlk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for blindtlk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.
> net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:14:49 -0400
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <4E4D31B09C9F4FD5B8F92A6CF5A7207A at StevePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Connie:
> There are sighted individuals who are truly amazed how blind individuals
> function in such an accomplish manner. A lot of these individual really
> admire how a blind person is able to function. I'm not certain if a
> question dealing with how you apply your makeup is a dumb or stupid
> question. People are just curious.
> Steve.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
>
>> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the
>> bus to work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my
>> makeup. I was in a rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog
>> did it with her long tail. She believed it. Again as you already
>> said, here's your sign.
>>
>> Connie Canode
>> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you
>>>know, find your mouth with your fork...?
>>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing
>>>line around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I
>>>just follow th line up to my mouth.
>>>
>>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a
>>>blind dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the
>>>glasses and led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in
>>>itself...
>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>
>>>Marty
>>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>>
>>>
>>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded
>>>>me of the following incident:
>>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of
>>>>them asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered
>>>>me, though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention
>>>>it still made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of
>>>>work needs to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't
>>>>well-known or even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list;
>>>>ai always learn a lot from you guys.
>>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you
>>>>blind from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I
>>>>sometimes get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the
>>>>sighted world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while
>>>>eating or doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to
>>>>speak.
>>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head
>>>>clockwise or counterclockwise?
>>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind
>>>>from birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when
>>>>I first introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of
>>>>Prematurity like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>>Gerardo
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q.com
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for blindtlk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.51/2151 - Release Date: 06/02/09
> 17:53:00
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:23:44 -0600
> From: clinton waterbury <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent
> Request! Please Help!
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <581EDF67-8E28-4ABD-8D6E-0DD005CDC286 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> O wow... that stinks! comcast is like the only cable company here in
> the state of Utah, but not with the bate and switch.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:25:47 -0600
> From: clinton waterbury <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent
> Request! Please Help!
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <E93EC2A2-05C7-4C88-B818-4A628F7167CA at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> adentum to the last message, now that I read it al the way through.
> Do they not know they can be sued straight into thin air if they don't
> quit that crap?
> On Jun 2, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Eric Calhoun wrote:
>
>> Cindy and Beverly: Christy is under the impression that the whole
>> town of
>> Montgomery, Pa., is under Windstream. Humorously, Clinton, if
>> Christy is
>> using the toll-free 888 number for NFB Newsline, she is baited and
>> switched
>> as well.
>>
>> It appears that Windstream has jurisdiction over the people of
>> Montgomery. And, Jim Antonicci has been notified; I've yet to hear a
>> response from him.
>>
>> There's no competition when a small town is dominated by a small
>> company.
>> I agree: Christy does have choices. I would say, even if she's told
>> to
>> switch to A.T.&T., (something she may be forced to do), she may have
>> no
>> other choice.
>>
>> In going to www.windstream.com, and clicking on "Terms And
>> Conditions," I
>> found these "Terms" flawed. For example: If you're on that service,
>> any
>> line, deemed to be a "chat Line" you may not call. That includes the
>> aforementioned Mytelespace. You may not call any long-distance
>> numbers for
>> NFB Newsline, because it considered to be an "Information Line."
>> Windstream reserves the right to call you, without notice, and,
>> "harass"
>> you over the phone, on your bill! I'll stop now, but read the T&C
>> and see
>> for yourself.
>>
>> Eric, Who is Thankful for All Responses
>>
>> P.S. I also was given a number over at the American Association for
>> People with Disabilities. I'm going to wait till I hear from Jim
>> first.
>>
>> Eric
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>> Want to eee-lectrify your summer? Want to find out about future Major
>> Leaguers, and independent Minor-Leaguers? The Baseball List is your
>> answer! To join, please send an email, to eric at pmpmail.com, and put,
>> "Eric, I'd like to join your baseball list," in the subject line!
>>
>> Eric from Los Angeles! Remember! It's not the size of the dog in the
>> fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
>>
>> Eric from Los Angeles!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:03:04 +1000
> From: Kathleen Millhoff <kmillhoff at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: Dave Wright <gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net>, Blind Talk Mailing List
> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <1a2223ff0906021803x5d132e8cp2e7da9416eaf9842 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I learned something about body language from my numerous siblings who
> were unsparing in their critiques of me; often people would tell me,
> "quit frowning" which was usually when i was concentrating or thinking
> or just doing nothing; i got kind of compulsive about it; then, my
> curious nature led me to query my mom about things like shoulder
> shrugs and the like; here in the islands, people use eyebrow raises to
> convey lots - and i think after these many years i'm still learning of
> the many ways it happens. anyway, i still talk to people about
> gestures and behaviors, and i think that blind people should just ask
> someone they trust about things; i've heard us (yes, the generic "us"
> meaning each and everyone of us), described as wooden, expressionless,
> stiff, and more. i just ignore those things, believing that somehow,
> rightly or wrongly, people who judge by visual impression are shallow
> and uninformed. Having said this, I know that people really _Do judge
> by visual image, and I just hope that people can learn what they want
> to about body language but not stress too much over it.
> best,
> kat
>
>
> On 6/3/09, Dave Wright <gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Good morning all,
>> Although I wasn't born blind, I was born in a different country where
>> body
>> language just like spoken language is a little different. I lost my sight
>> gradually over a period of several years and can understand this topic of
>> wanting to utilize body language to better enrich communication. Since
>> going
>> blind, I've noticed that I use body language more consciously than before
>> going blind. For example, I have to make an effort to verbalize more when
>> talking to blind individuals. I often find myself nodding my head or
>> using
>> hand gestures to indicate objects, or emphasize ideas.
>> When talking to friends who are blind from birth, I've discussed the
>> importance of utilizing body language as a tool, but not to be distracted
>> by
>> ones knowledge of it. In order to learn body language a positive means of
>> communication, it is important to ask questions of family and other
>> sighted
>> peers. In my opinion, a certain amount of body language is natural is
>> doesn't need to be learned. Just my thoughts.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards:
>> Dave Wright
>> Work Phone: 651-636-5184 X803
>> Email:
>> dwrigh6 at gmail.com
>> WebPage:
>> http://www.knfbreader.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Cramer" <tom.cramer1 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>> Yes.
>>> I've often wondered very similar things.
>>> I would love to get some answers to this as well.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio" <gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>> To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:05 PM
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>>
>>>
>>>> Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded me
>>>> of
>>>> the following incident:
>>>> The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of them
>>>> asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered me,
>>>> though
>>>>
>>>> I know the sighted person asked me with good intention it still made me
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> bit angry to the point that I know still lots of work needs to be done
>>>> (especially in countries where the NFB isn't well-known or even heard
>>>> of); this is why I really enjoy the list; ai always learn a lot from
>>>> you
>>>> guys.
>>>> This brings me to another question especially for those of you blind
>>>> from
>>>>
>>>> birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I sometimes get to
>>>> thinking that aside from integrating more with the sighted world, it
>>>> saves our mouths from talking, especially while eating or doing other
>>>> things that at that moment doesn't permit us to speak.
>>>> also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>> moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head clockwise
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>> counterclockwise?
>>>> also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind from
>>>> birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when I first
>>>> introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of Prematurity
>>>> like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>> Gerardo
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/tom.cramer1%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kmillhoff%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> kathy millhoff - "Let each morn be better than its eve, and each
> morrow richer than its yesterday."
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:54:03 -0500
> From: "Tony Grima" <agrima at nbp.org> (by way of David Andrews
> <dandrews at visi.com>)
> Subject: [Blindtlk] NBP-Announce: Using the Accessible iPod, by Anna
> Dresner
> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <auto-000101611253 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Using the Accessible iPod
> By Anna Dresner
> In braille, PortaBook, ASCII text/Word, and DAISY formats, $15
> (Also downloadable in PortaBook, ASCII text/Word, and DAISY formats)
>
> Cute, well-designed, and able to hold hundreds or thousands of songs,
> iPods have taken the world by storm. And in the past few months, Apple
> has added another feature to their popular Nano and Shuffle models --
> the ability to speak. Once you take a few simple steps, every feature
> on the iPod Shuffle and most features on the Nano are completely
> accessible. iTunes now works better for blind people than ever before,
> especially the iTunes store. If you're wondering how to take advantage
> of this new accessibility, Using the Accessible iPod can help. It tells
> you how to do everything you need to get up and running with one of the
> new iPods, including:
> * Getting started with iTunes
> * Putting the music, playlists, audiobooks and podcasts you want on your
> computer and into your iPod
> * Getting your iPod to speak
> * Using all accessible features of your iPod
> A troubleshooting section, a list of helpful resources, and information
> on how your iPod organizes music are also included; see the table of
> contents for more information. Whether you've never owned an iPod
> before or you'd like to be able to do more with the one you have, this
> book will help. The included iPods are the fourth generation Nano and
> the second and third generation Shuffles.
>
> In addition to braille and electronic text, we are proud to offer Using
> The Accessible iPod in DAISY format, both on CD and for download. (If
> you choose to download the DAISY version, we recommend that you use a
> broadband connection, as the file is over 60 MB in length.) Put it in
> your Victor Reader Stream or other DAISY player, or if you use JAWS,
> Freedom Scientific has generously arranged for it to work with the demo
> version of FSReader, so you don't need any new software to listen on
> your computer or read with a braille display. You can quickly navigate
> by heading or page to find the section you want. In addition to
> synthesized audio, the full text is included to make searching or
> moving through URLs quick and easy. So pick up a copy in your favorite
> format today.
>
> Read the full table of contents - or order your copy! - at:
> http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/ACCIPOD.html
>
> ******
> To order any books, send payment to:
> NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
> Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
> 20. Or order any of our books online at
> http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nbp mailing list
> Nbp at nbp.org
>
> PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and
> your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org .
>
> Visit us at http://www.nbp.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:57:07 -0500
> From: "Sherrill O'Brien" <sherrill.obrien at verizon.net> (by way of
> David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)
> Subject: [Blindtlk] couple in Florida affiliate looking for a room at
> convention
> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <auto-000101611452 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Hello to all,
>
> Lloyd and Marjorie Matthews were hoping to go to the convention, but as
> you
> know, all rooms are sold out in the two adjoining hotels. If anyone finds
> that they need to cancel their reservation, or if you know someone who is
> in
> this situation, would you please send an email to the Matthews at
> llomad at tampabay.rr.com.
>
> Of course we hope no one needs to cancel their trip, but if that should
> happen, at least they will be able to help other Federationists
> experience
> the excitement of our convention!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Sherrill O'Brien
>
> Tampa Bay Chapter Vice President
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:06:43 -0500
> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body
> language
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <3C3D31F43937483B801572F5A101CCF9 at gary981c381855>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Appropriately putting on makeup is a major problem for many blind women,
> and
> more of them should ask those who do it well and more of us should be more
> open to admitting that the answers to things obvious to us once weren't.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
>
>> Connie:
>> There are sighted individuals who are truly amazed how blind individuals
>> function in such an accomplish manner. A lot of these individual really
>> admire how a blind person is able to function. I'm not certain if a
>> question dealing with how you apply your makeup is a dumb or stupid
>> question. People are just curious.
>> Steve.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the
>>> bus to work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my
>>> makeup. I was in a rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog
>>> did it with her long tail. She believed it. Again as you already
>>> said, here's your sign.
>>>
>>> Connie Canode
>>> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you
>>>>know, find your mouth with your fork...?
>>>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing
>>>>line around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I
>>>>just follow th line up to my mouth.
>>>>
>>>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a
>>>>blind dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the
>>>>glasses and led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in
>>>>itself...
>>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>>
>>>>Marty
>>>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>>>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded
>>>>>me of the following incident:
>>>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of
>>>>>them asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered
>>>>>me, though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention
>>>>>it still made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of
>>>>>work needs to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't
>>>>>well-known or even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list;
>>>>>ai always learn a lot from you guys.
>>>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you
>>>>>blind from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I
>>>>>sometimes get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the
>>>>>sighted world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while
>>>>>eating or doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to
>>>>>speak.
>>>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head
>>>>>clockwise or counterclockwise?
>>>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind
>>>>>from birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when
>>>>>I first introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of
>>>>>Prematurity like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>>>Gerardo
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.51/2151 - Release Date:
>> 06/02/09
>> 17:53:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:10:36 -0400
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent
> Request! Please Help!
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <089F653A7BB74D6ABD9DB9D5A1CFCC19 at cindy2e65cf610>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> What are you guys talking about, Bait and Switch?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "clinton waterbury" <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making very little progress Re: Urgent Request!
> Please Help!
>
>
> O wow... that stinks! comcast is like the only cable company here in
> the state of Utah, but not with the bate and switch.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:21:04 -0600
> From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Urgent request! Please help!
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <5D7E0A54FFB34E89A79C48AB39DFDF05 at LENOVOF068F7B4>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I'm not sticking up for the company by any means!
> This is one of the many reasons that I don't have a lan line phone.
> I used to have AT&T free long distence, they said that you could only use
> It
> for voice calls, and not for data calls.
> It sounds like that they are saying that It's a data call.
> The companies just don't get It.
> Most people just have cell phones for reasons like this.
> When they got the news line on line, that gave me the push in dropping my
> home phone.
> Cell phones now out number lan lines in this and allot of countries, for
> stuff like this.
> But I guess they would call It a data call, with out asking someone what
> kind of call this Is.
> I would tell this lady to If she can to just drop her line, and take her
> number to a cell, or to something like vonage or magic jack If she can get
> a
> high speed connection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "clinton waterbury" <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Urgent request! Please help!
>
>
>> There's 1 thing that's not to clear. Is or was your friend trying to
>> call the 888 number for newsline? Cause if that's the case than I would
>> be telling this company exactly where to go.
>> On Jun 1, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Cindy Handel wrote:
>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> I'd suggest that you call the Pennsylvania NFB's state office,
>>> tomorrow.
>>> The number is: 215-988-0888.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Eric Calhoun" <eric at pmpmail.com>
>>> To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:16 PM
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Urgent request! Please help!
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave, is it okay if I post this info?
>>>
>>> I need to hear from someone who is involved in telephone-company
>>> harassment in the National Federation of the Blind. I also ask this
>>> goes
>>> to the National Federation of the Blind of Pennsylvania. This is
>>> blindness-related, and my friend, Christy, is having her rights
>>> revoked!
>>> Altel bought out Verizon, includingwindstream. Christy has been
>>> harassed
>>> by Windstream's unlimited long-distance department. She, in essence,
>>> cannot call My Telespace, a line for blind/visually-impaired users,
>>> "because it is a (sex) line." It is not. It is located in New Mexico.
>>> People call throughout the country, using their unlimited long-
>>> distance.
>>> She cannot call NFB Newsline, because it is an "information line." She
>>> is
>>> not allowed to call toll-free.
>>>
>>> Christy lives in Montgomery, Pennsylvania, outside of Muncie,
>>> Pennsylvania.
>>>
>>> If anyone can please help me, please contact me off-list, or respond
>>> on-list, if you wish.
>>>
>>> If you need phone numbers, please contact me off-list. She is an
>>> NFB-er
>>> in the state of Pennsylvania, and she wants to sue Windstream. Thank
>>> you!
>>>
>>> Eric Calhoun
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Want to eee-lectrify your summer? Want to find out about future Major
>>> Leaguers, and independent Minor-Leaguers? The Baseball List is your
>>> answer! To join, please send an email, to eric at pmpmail.com, and put,
>>> "Eric, I'd like to join your baseball list," in the subject line!
>>>
>>> Eric from Los Angeles! Remember! It's not the size of the dog in the
>>> fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
>>>
>>> Eric from Los Angeles!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dewey.bradley%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:20:57 -0400
> From: trishs <slosser at metrocast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Alternative Philosophies
> To: Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>, Blind Talk Mailing
> List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <200906030221.n532L4nu017759 at pear.metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thank you.
> Apparently, I've unwittingly inqroduced a topic better suited for
> a different list. Feel free to email me off list and perhaps we
> can put our energy into that.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:44:31 -0400
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Alternative Philosophies
>
>>Trish,
>> As a practitioner of Metaphysics, as well as a professional
> in the field
>>of Mental Health Counseling with a specialty in Hypnotherapy, as
> well as a
>>facilitator of past life regression, , I completely understand
> the Law of
>>Mind-Action and Chakra energy. Some in the more "mainstream" may
> ridicule
>>such spiritual beliefs, but their ignorance is only their
> unwillingness to
>>accept alternative views. Some think that their limited view of
> the world
>>and of spirituality is the only Truth and have been taught to
> fear an
>>alternative explanation because it threatens those paradigns
> ability to
>>control their believers. Such religious intolerance creates the
> persecution
>>that has been waged in the past to suppress and oppress others.
> The
>>liberating philosophy that we are in control of our destinies and
> that the
>>ultimate goal can be nothing less than the full realization of
> the expanded
>>consciousness takes the control away from the fearmongers who
> limit the
>>Universe by limitedly defining the Creator. In the words of a
> great
>>philosopher, "God created man in its own image and then man
> returned the
>>favor!"
>
>>fraternally,
>>Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>> Well! See ms a lot has transpired since I last "saw you
> guys!"
>>> Bad energy, people! Bad energy!
>>> Somebody's got a blockage!
>>> Ok. I'm done. . . I'm going to go and grow up now. And, since
> I get to
>>> come back, I'll talk to you soon (TTYS)
>>> Thanks, to all, for your back up.
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 20:49:35 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>I'm probably old enough to be your father or grandfather. You
>>> sound like a
>>>>drugged out adolescent with your energy pathways, meridians and
>>> finally,
>>>>"perhaps my energy didn't reach your ears". Your energy wouldn't
>>> reach my
>>>>ears if you were in the house next to mine. Next, you'll be
>>> talking about
>>>>astrological signs. Grow up you foolish child.
>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:07 PM
>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>Hey, Schwartz!
>>>> #1. When did I "assume that all credible knowledge lies with in
>>>>Western culture.?"
>>>>#2. I "misapplied the vast body of Eastern wisdom", how?"
>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where did I see myself
>>>>disrespectful to Eastern, or Western culture.
>>>> Being ignorant of customs, I have great respect for Eastern
>>>>wisdom. Just brushing the surface, through Massage Therapy
>>>>training was one of the most interesting, complicated, and
>>>>difficult things I've ever done.
>>>> Miss. chauvinistic, childish, and ignorant hear, never made any
>>>>such claim. I mentioned the words touch, intension, energy, and
>>>>meridian. So. Because you've never heard of a meridian, I don't
>>>>know what I'm talking about?
>>>> I'd be willing to bet there's an Eastern word for things like
>>>>your defensive name calling. In Western terms, it's called Get a
>>>>grip!
>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:18:49 -0400
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>It is chauvinistic to assume that all credible knowledge resides
>>>>within
>>>>>Western culture. It is childish and ignorant to misapply the
>>>>vast body of
>>>>>Eastern wisdom.
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:29 PM
>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>Excuse me. Perhaps my words touched your ears, and you've
>>>>>misunderstood them? Or, perhaps I wasn't quite following the
>>>>>thread? It's possible. I make mistakes from time to time, too.
>>>>>No worries!
>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:25:41 -0400
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>Sorry, but I still have no idea what you are talking about, nor
>>>>>do you.
>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:28 AM
>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>This applied to the intension of touch.
>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Date sent: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:11:23 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>And just what does this have to do with touching or being
>>>>>>touched? Can you
>>>>>>>tell which organ someone is touching you with by its energy
>>>>>>pathway?
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>In Eastern medicine it's called a meridian. There are energy
>>>>>>>channels which correspond to each body organ, which Eastern
>>>>>>>cultures have mapped for about as long as there's been medicine.
>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:09:33 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>What in the world is an "energy Pathway"
>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>As far as "across the board answers", and people getting "mad",
>>>>>>>>we each have the power and self responsibility to say I'm
>>>>>>>>uncomfortable with that," or "Stop it! That's inappropriate!" Or
>>>>>>>>"Could you do that again?" I feel as though I can speak for most
>>>>>>>>people when I say that we have all been in situations where a
>>>>>>>>person's touch "creeped us out", or made us want more. There are
>>>>>>>>many types of touch, and it is ALL ABOUT INTENSION, which is
>>>>>>>>carried through invisible energy pathways.
>>>>>>>>There are also times when we misunderstand, or misinterpret
>>>>>>>>someone's touch. It can be difficult to navigate these energy
>>>>>>>>pathways, so your power is in your own intension for your own
>>>>>>>>comfort level.
>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:47:07 -0400
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>It has nothing to do with blindness in my case. I just hate
>>>>>>>>being touched.
>
>>>>>>>>>Steve
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us without
>>>>>>>>putting
>>>>>>>>>> there hands on us.
>>>>>>>>>> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be
>>>>>>>>touched, When
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
>>>>>>>>>> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like
>>>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a very complicated topic. There are those, like me, who
>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I
>>>>>>>>really don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know very well. I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
>>>>>>>>spacial
>>>>>>>>>>> concepts during conversations. You don't want to be too close
>>>>>>>>during a
>>>>>>>>>>> conversation or too far away. I suspect most of us who
>>>>>>>>understand this
>>>>>>>>>>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they
>>>>>>>>trust.
>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>>>>>>>>>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me to
>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>> quite germ spreading! I like the bowing idea a lot!
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I love these kinds of topics. I believe the issue of blind or
>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should touch
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>or not. It comes down more to how comfortable you are with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> means of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>communication. In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>>>>>>>>>>> yurself to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>into
>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>paradigm. This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>>>>>>>>>>> donw with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>initiative
>>>>>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and often. When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>>>>>>>>>>> there and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers. This calls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>attention
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Long
>>>>>>>>>>>> ago I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>>>>>>>>>>> handing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the older
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so that
>>>>>>>>>>>> my Asian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>greatful.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joel
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychologist.
>>>>>>>>>>>> My vision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace. I drove a car until I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27
>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> 40. Now, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception. When younger,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaching
>>>>>>>>>>>> out to shake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing. Eventually, I learned to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>> this problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by taking the initiative. On occasion I reach out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discover
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no experience with the touching. There are cultural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>>>>> in such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonverbal behaviors. For example, cultures vary in terms of
>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarded as personal space. Groups vary in terms of how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>>>>>> they stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> is common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others. Perhaps your blindness
>>>>>>>>>>>> has led you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> felt bad for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> departed. There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindisms. We all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> would not do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in front of others. There is a tendency, particularly if one
>>>>>>>>>>>> loses their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by what others can see. We assume that if we can't see
>>>>>>>>>>>> something others can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not either. This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>>>>>>>>>>> performing these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grooming rituals in public. Recently, I have noticed that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am walking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking. I am working on
>>>>>>>>>>>> suppressing this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>>>>>>>>>>> strange. Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in some
>>>>>>>>>>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> odd
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted person, I
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When do you do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this? If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary, since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're participating in the conversation. I think we've all
>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they walked
>>>>>>>>>>>> away. Now, if
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>>>>> still there
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I have met sighted people who talk with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>>>> and touch my
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis. So, that might not be so
>>>>>>>>>>>> unusual.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>>> on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from you
>>>>>>>>>>>> guys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due to
>>>>>>>>>>>> RP; since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching the
>>>>>>>>>>>> arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued
>>>>>>>>>>>> to do this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that this
>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago. I'm still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shocked
>>>>>>>>>>>> by this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> still there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> if they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there but aren't there. How have you coped with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>>>>>> in that you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it has
>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>>>>>> to shake if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>>>>>>> 5%40verizon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .net
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>>>>> schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/jzimba%
>>>>>>>>>>>> 40cavtel.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>>>deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>---------------
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release
>>>>>>>>Date:
>>>>>>>>>>> 05/24/09
>>>>>>>>>>> 07:09:00
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dewey.b
>>>>>>>>radley%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>>>deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>---------------
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.40/2135 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>>05/26/09
>>>>>>>>>08:53:00
>
>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for
>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for
>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>> schwartz%40
>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>> %40metrocast.net
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/swampfo
> x1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindtlk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
> %40metrocast.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:21:05 -0400
> From: trishs <slosser at metrocast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] my intro
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <200906030221.n532L4nv017759 at pear.metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thanks, Sarah. It honestly doesn't hurt now as much as it did
> when I was a toddler. I do still have residual inflamatory
> issues, and other aches and pains I have are related to posture
> and body mechanics. Aside from that, I'm just out-of-sight! All
> I'm lacking is a little "supervision!"
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:41:05 -0700
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] my intro
>
>>Thanks for the warm welcome. I am from Washington State, and, as
> I said in
>>my intro, I have light perception. It must suck to have JRA. It
> must be
>>painful.
>>Sarah
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:23 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] my intro
>
>
>>> Welcome, Sarah. Nice to see you chiming in! I'm Trish from
> New
>>> England, long time blind, Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. (JRA.)
>
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net
>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:17:20 -0700
>>>>Subject: [Blindtlk] my intro
>
>>>>I guess I should introduce myself. My name is Sarah, and I am
>>> from Washington State, Puyallup, to be exact. I have been blind
> since
>>> birth, and have been thinking about starting a list having to do
> with ONH,
>>> or optic nerve hypoplasia, which means that my optic nerve never
> grew. It
>>> grew to the point that I can see light, and that's it. I will
> post more
>>> later.
>>>>Sarah
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>> %40metrocast.net
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sarahb0
> 06%40comcast.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindtlk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
> %40metrocast.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:21:07 -0400
> From: trishs <slosser at metrocast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gary wunder: Alternative Spirituality
> To: Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net>, Blind Talk Mailing List
> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <200906030221.n532L4nw017759 at pear.metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I, personally, don't know any thing about starting a new list, I
> honestly don't have the energy for that, myself. I'd be
> interested if someone else wanted to do the work, though.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net
>>To: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>,"Blind Talk
> Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:06:48 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gary wunder: Alternative Spirituality
>
>>Yes, let some of us who are interested in this subject take it
> off list. I'd
>>be most interested in pursuing the topic with you.
>
>>Warmest regards,
>
>>Gary
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net
>>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:14 PM
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Gary wunder: Alternative Spirituality
>
>
>>> Gary,
>>> I know we have been reminded by the Moderator to keep things
> more
>>> on-topic, but I just couldn't resist commenting on your message.
> I believe
>>> we all have the ability to understand such things as you
> mention,
>>> including psychic abilities. Perhaps we should create a list
> for those of
>>> us who practice alternative Spirituality, including those of us
> who
>>> practice Metaphysics and Wicca, rather than to discuss them on
> this list.
>>> At the same time, I know there are quite a few people in the NFB
> who do
>>> practice these Paths and sharing some of our beliefs is not very
> different
>>> from those who openly share their Christian beliefs. The
> difference, I
>>> think, is that we might believe we are in the minority and feel
> as if we
>>> might be ridiculed (as one has already seen could happen),
> although, my
>>> observation is that even those who practice some mainstream
> religions are
>>> becoming interested in such things as tapping into their psychic
>>> abilities, energy pathways, reincarnation, and astrology.
> Parenthetically,
>>> astrology is much more involved than the horoscopes we read in
> the
>>> newspaper and I will be the first to admit that it is more
> complicated
>>> than I care to become. I do have many friends and colleagues
> who read
>>> Tarot, runes, and practice psychometry with incredible accuracy
> of
>>> prediction. If anyone would like to discuss these in more
> detail, I would
>>> be more than happy to share my philosophical understanding and,
> as a
>>> former seminarian of six years and life-long student of
> religion, even
>>> discuss some of the Scriptural references that support my
> beliefs. You may
>>> write to me off-list at
>>> swampfox1833 at verizon.net
>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>> Hello Trishhs. Sorry to see you having to face these comments.
> I do not
>>>> understand all about energies and Meridians. I guess it is
> tough when you
>>>> write from Atlantis and some folks just don't understand.
>
>>>> I hope you will keep on sharing. There's a lot we don't know,
> and I, for
>>>> one, would enjoy hearing about energy sources I don't know how
> to tap.
>>>> I'm not even certain I'm against hearing from people who believe
> in
>>>> astrology, those who say they can communicate with the dead, and
> people
>>>> who believe they have some ability to predict the future. I
> can't do any
>>>> of those things, but I'm not prepared to say that they can't be
> done
>>>> simply because they don't fall in my repertoire.
>
>>>> Thanks again for sharing.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>> Well! Seems a lot has transpired since I last "saw you guys!"
>>>>> Bad energy, people! Bad energy!
>>>>> Somebody's got a blockage!
>>>>> Ok. I'm done. . . I'm going to go and grow up now. And, since
> I get
>>>>> to come back, I'll talk to you soon (TTYS)
>>>>> Thanks, to all, for your back up.
>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 20:49:35 -0400
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>I'm probably old enough to be your father or grandfather. You
>>>>> sound like a
>>>>>>drugged out adolescent with your energy pathways, meridians and
>>>>> finally,
>>>>>>"perhaps my energy didn't reach your ears". Your energy wouldn't
>>>>> reach my
>>>>>>ears if you were in the house next to mine. Next, you'll be
>>>>> talking about
>>>>>>astrological signs. Grow up you foolish child.
>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:07 PM
>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>Hey, Schwartz!
>>>>>> #1. When did I "assume that all credible knowledge lies with in
>>>>>>Western culture.?"
>>>>>>#2. I "misapplied the vast body of Eastern wisdom", how?"
>>>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where did I see myself
>>>>>>disrespectful to Eastern, or Western culture.
>>>>>> Being ignorant of customs, I have great respect for Eastern
>>>>>>wisdom. Just brushing the surface, through Massage Therapy
>>>>>>training was one of the most interesting, complicated, and
>>>>>>difficult things I've ever done.
>>>>>> Miss. chauvinistic, childish, and ignorant hear, never made any
>>>>>>such claim. I mentioned the words touch, intension, energy, and
>>>>>>meridian. So. Because you've never heard of a meridian, I don't
>>>>>>know what I'm talking about?
>>>>>> I'd be willing to bet there's an Eastern word for things like
>>>>>>your defensive name calling. In Western terms, it's called Get a
>>>>>>grip!
>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:18:49 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>It is chauvinistic to assume that all credible knowledge resides
>>>>>>within
>>>>>>>Western culture. It is childish and ignorant to misapply the
>>>>>>vast body of
>>>>>>>Eastern wisdom.
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:29 PM
>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>Excuse me. Perhaps my words touched your ears, and you've
>>>>>>>misunderstood them? Or, perhaps I wasn't quite following the
>>>>>>>thread? It's possible. I make mistakes from time to time, too.
>>>>>>>No worries!
>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:25:41 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>Sorry, but I still have no idea what you are talking about, nor
>>>>>>>do you.
>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:28 AM
>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>This applied to the intension of touch.
>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:11:23 -0400
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>And just what does this have to do with touching or being
>>>>>>>>touched? Can you
>>>>>>>>>tell which organ someone is touching you with by its energy
>>>>>>>>pathway?
>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>In Eastern medicine it's called a meridian. There are energy
>>>>>>>>>channels which correspond to each body organ, which Eastern
>>>>>>>>>cultures have mapped for about as long as there's been medicine.
>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>>>To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:09:33 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>What in the world is an "energy Pathway"
>
>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>Behalf Of trishs
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>As far as "across the board answers", and people getting "mad",
>>>>>>>>>>we each have the power and self responsibility to say I'm
>>>>>>>>>>uncomfortable with that," or "Stop it! That's inappropriate!" Or
>>>>>>>>>>"Could you do that again?" I feel as though I can speak for most
>>>>>>>>>>people when I say that we have all been in situations where a
>>>>>>>>>>person's touch "creeped us out", or made us want more. There are
>>>>>>>>>>many types of touch, and it is ALL ABOUT INTENSION, which is
>>>>>>>>>>carried through invisible energy pathways.
>>>>>>>>>>There are also times when we misunderstand, or misinterpret
>>>>>>>>>>someone's touch. It can be difficult to navigate these energy
>>>>>>>>>>pathways, so your power is in your own intension for your own
>>>>>>>>>>comfort level.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:47:07 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>>It has nothing to do with blindness in my case. I just hate
>>>>>>>>>>being touched.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us
>>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>putting
>>>>>>>>>>>> there hands on us.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be
>>>>>>>>>>touched, When
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like
>>>>>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a very complicated topic. There are those, like me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I
>>>>>>>>>>really don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know very well. I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
>>>>>>>>>>spacial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> concepts during conversations. You don't want to be too close
>>>>>>>>>>during a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation or too far away. I suspect most of us who
>>>>>>>>>>understand this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they
>>>>>>>>>>trust.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite germ spreading! I like the bowing idea a lot!
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I love these kinds of topics. I believe the issue of blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or not. It comes down more to how comfortable you are with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>communication. In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yurself to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>paradigm. This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> donw with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>initiative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and often. When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers. This calls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>attention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>older
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my Asian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>greatful.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joel
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychologist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My vision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace. I drove a car until I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40. Now, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception. When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out to shake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing. Eventually, I learned to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by taking the initiative. On occasion I reach out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no experience with the touching. There are cultural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonverbal behaviors. For example, cultures vary in terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarded as personal space. Groups vary in terms of how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others. Perhaps your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has led you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> felt bad for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> departed. There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindisms. We all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in front of others. There is a tendency, particularly if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loses their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by what others can see. We assume that if we can't see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something others can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not either. This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performing these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grooming rituals in public. Recently, I have noticed that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am walking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking. I am working on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppressing this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strange. Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> odd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted person, I
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When do you do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this? If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary, since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're participating in the conversation. I think we've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away. Now, if
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still there
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I have met sighted people who talk with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and touch my
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis. So, that might not be so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unusual.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RP; since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago. I'm still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there but aren't there. How have you coped with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in that you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to shake if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5%40verizon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .net
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/jzimba%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40cavtel.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>>>>>deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>---------------
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release
>>>>>>>>>>Date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05/24/09
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07:09:00
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dewey.b
>>>>>>>>>>radley%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>>>>>deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>---------------
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.40/2135 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>>>>05/26/09
>>>>>>>>>>>08:53:00
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>schwartz%40
>>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>> schwartz%40
>>>>>>sbcglobal.net
>
>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder
> %40earthlink.net
>
>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/swampfo
> x1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
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> %40earthlink.net
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindtlk mailing list
>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindtlk:
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> %40metrocast.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:42:30 -0700
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <711198AEE1E5412F9A0368D49976AEFB at owner96190708e>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> However, I don't see how ADA or other statutes would cover the situation
> in that a survey is not a "place of public accommodation".
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "clinton waterbury" <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company
>
>
> I wonder what in blazes was going through their mind when they turned
> around and wrote something like that. If someone did that to another
> sighted person the company would probably not exist.
> On Jun 2, 2009, at 12:53 AM, Amanda Robertson wrote:
>
>> Hello list,
>>
>> About a year ago, I had an incident with a survey company called
>> Pinecone
>> Research which was a blatant case of discrimination against the
>> blind. I was
>> a member of their panel and took surveys which were product reviews
>> in the
>> form of images with embedded text. I requested that an alternate
>> form of the
>> reviews in text only format be available, but she declined. I will
>> paste the
>> contents of her email reply below this message. The questions
>> following the
>> product descriptions did not directly relate to the images or require
>> physically viewing the products. They were things like evaluating
>> the value
>> and price and whether or not it was a product I would buy. Nothing
>> in the
>> survey required visual analysis of the image and just as much
>> information
>> could have been transmitted via an alternate link containing a text
>> version
>> of the descriptions.
>>
>> Also, in ther FAQs, they state that if you are unable to see the
>> images, you
>> cannot participate in their surveys. Exact phrasing and a link to the
>> current Terms will be provided below. I also intend to make a record
>> of the
>> current TOS as they appear now for future reference. I will also
>> include a
>> link to a blog post I made about a year ago related to this site. In a
>> year's time, they have done nothing to facilitate accessibility of
>> their
>> surveys and I seriously believe something should be done to remedy the
>> discrimination situation.
>>
>> ---FAQ quote and link as of June 2, 2009 at 12:38 a.m. MST---
>> If I'm unable to see the product concept, should I complete the survey
>> anyway? Your ability to view the product concept in the survey is a
>> requirement for participation in the study. As a member of the
>> PineCone
>> Research panel, you directly influence which products get
>> developed and
>> help ensure that these products meet consumer demands. Your opinion
>> will
>> have an impact on everything from product performance to style,
>> varieties,
>> features, pricing...you name it.If you are ever unable to view the
>> product
>> concept in one of our surveys, whether it's presented in a picture or
>> video format, please contact us at scott at pineconeresearch.com for
>> troubleshooting assistance. Surveys submitted by those who were
>> unable to
>> view the product concept are not included in the study data
>> http://www.pineconeresearch.com/faq.asp#genpar14
>>
>>
>> ---May 15, 2008 blog post link---
>> http://zhuuraan.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/pinecone-research-discriminates-dont-join-them/
>>
>> ---Copy of email from Karen Scott of Pinecone Research---
>> RE: FAQ + 35811-1002 /ID 388210
>>
>> Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:23 PM
>>
>> From:
>>
>> "Karen Scott (USA)" <scott at pineconeresearch.com>
>>
>> Add sender to Contacts
>>
>> To:
>>
>> zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, our online surveys are
>> specifically designed for panelists who are fully able view the
>> product
>> images. If your visual impairment prevents you from seeing such
>> images and
>> pictures, you will not be able to be a panelist. Please let me
>> knowwhether
>> you wish to remain on the panel.Cordially,Karen ScottWeb site:
>> http://www.pineconeresearch.com
>> E-mail:
>> scott at pineconeresearch.com
>> Ref: 06-----Original Message-----From:
>> zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>> [mailto:
>> zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:38 To: Karen Scott (USA)Subject: FAQ +
>> 35811-1002 /ID 388210Additional details:I would like to request that
>> a text
>> form of
>> the product descriptions be provided. I am visually impaired and it
>> is very
>> difficult to read them.I have to strain my eyes to do so. I don't
>> believe it
>> would be that hard to extract the text only from the picture and
>> link to it
>> as analternative. Thiss would benefit myself, as well as any other
>> members
>> orprospective
>> members which have visual problems. I would greatly appreciate it if
>> future
>> studies could have a link to the text version.Name: Amanda
>> RobertsonEmail:
>> zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>> Panelist: YesHousehold ID: 388210Study Number: 35811-1002Web Browser:
>> Operating System: The following problems/issues were checked: -
>> Other
>> Participation
>>
>>
>> Feel free to pass this to everyone you know. This is blatant
>> discrimination
>> if I've ever heard of it and in a year, they've done nothing to
>> change it.
>>
>> Amanda Robertson
>>
>>
>> P.s. There are a few portions of their site that aren't accessible
>> as well
>> and could easily be made so.
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:43:24 -0600
> From: Amanda Robertson <zhuuraan at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <2dae4f5b0906022143w7e870467qcf14eced947a895f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> It applies because these surveys influence major products on the
> mainstream
> market. Ever heard of Kellogg's, Coca Cola, Pillsbury, Nestle, or Sunsilk?
> What about KFC? These are just a few companies I have taken surveys about,
> some through Pinecone and some through other companies. The point is that
> these surveys directly affect major brands that are bought by everyone,
> not
> just the sighted. To exclude the opinions of the blind community, they are
> excluding hundreds of thousands of people. Granted not all those people
> would participate to begin with, but I know many blind people who would
> take
> these surveys if they were accessible, especially since Pinecone pays for
> every single survey.
>
> What's worse is that companies like Kellogg and Coca Cola and others who
> employ Pinecone Research to conduct surveys on their behalf aren't the
> ones
> doing the discriminating. It is Pinecone which chooses to exclude the
> blindness community, which therefore means they are cheating these
> companies
> out of a fair and unbiased evaluation of consumer opinions.
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>
>> However, I don't see how ADA or other statutes would cover the situation
>> in that a survey is not a "place of public accommodation".
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "clinton waterbury" <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Gross Discrimination By A Major Survey Company
>>
>>
>> I wonder what in blazes was going through their mind when they turned
>> around and wrote something like that. If someone did that to another
>> sighted person the company would probably not exist.
>> On Jun 2, 2009, at 12:53 AM, Amanda Robertson wrote:
>>
>> > Hello list,
>> >
>> > About a year ago, I had an incident with a survey company called
>> > Pinecone
>> > Research which was a blatant case of discrimination against the
>> > blind. I was
>> > a member of their panel and took surveys which were product reviews
>> > in the
>> > form of images with embedded text. I requested that an alternate
>> > form of the
>> > reviews in text only format be available, but she declined. I will
>> > paste the
>> > contents of her email reply below this message. The questions
>> > following the
>> > product descriptions did not directly relate to the images or require
>> > physically viewing the products. They were things like evaluating
>> > the value
>> > and price and whether or not it was a product I would buy. Nothing
>> > in the
>> > survey required visual analysis of the image and just as much
>> > information
>> > could have been transmitted via an alternate link containing a text
>> > version
>> > of the descriptions.
>> >
>> > Also, in ther FAQs, they state that if you are unable to see the
>> > images, you
>> > cannot participate in their surveys. Exact phrasing and a link to the
>> > current Terms will be provided below. I also intend to make a record
>> > of the
>> > current TOS as they appear now for future reference. I will also
>> > include a
>> > link to a blog post I made about a year ago related to this site. In a
>> > year's time, they have done nothing to facilitate accessibility of
>> > their
>> > surveys and I seriously believe something should be done to remedy the
>> > discrimination situation.
>> >
>> > ---FAQ quote and link as of June 2, 2009 at 12:38 a.m. MST---
>> > If I'm unable to see the product concept, should I complete the survey
>> > anyway? Your ability to view the product concept in the survey is a
>> > requirement for participation in the study. As a member of the
>> > PineCone
>> > Research panel, you directly influence which products get
>> > developed and
>> > help ensure that these products meet consumer demands. Your opinion
>> > will
>> > have an impact on everything from product performance to style,
>> > varieties,
>> > features, pricing...you name it.If you are ever unable to view the
>> > product
>> > concept in one of our surveys, whether it's presented in a picture or
>> > video format, please contact us at scott at pineconeresearch.com for
>> > troubleshooting assistance. Surveys submitted by those who were
>> > unable to
>> > view the product concept are not included in the study data
>> > http://www.pineconeresearch.com/faq.asp#genpar14
>> >
>> >
>> > ---May 15, 2008 blog post link---
>> >
>> http://zhuuraan.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/pinecone-research-discriminates-dont-join-them/
>> >
>> > ---Copy of email from Karen Scott of Pinecone Research---
>> > RE: FAQ + 35811-1002 /ID 388210
>> >
>> > Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:23 PM
>> >
>> > From:
>> >
>> > "Karen Scott (USA)" <scott at pineconeresearch.com>
>> >
>> > Add sender to Contacts
>> >
>> > To:
>> >
>> > zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>> >
>> > Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, our online surveys are
>> > specifically designed for panelists who are fully able view the
>> > product
>> > images. If your visual impairment prevents you from seeing such
>> > images and
>> > pictures, you will not be able to be a panelist. Please let me
>> > knowwhether
>> > you wish to remain on the panel.Cordially,Karen ScottWeb site:
>> > http://www.pineconeresearch.com
>> > E-mail:
>> > scott at pineconeresearch.com
>> > Ref: 06-----Original Message-----From:
>> > zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>> > [mailto:
>> > zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com]
>> > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:38 To: Karen Scott (USA)Subject: FAQ +
>> > 35811-1002 /ID 388210Additional details:I would like to request that
>> > a text
>> > form of
>> > the product descriptions be provided. I am visually impaired and it
>> > is very
>> > difficult to read them.I have to strain my eyes to do so. I don't
>> > believe it
>> > would be that hard to extract the text only from the picture and
>> > link to it
>> > as analternative. Thiss would benefit myself, as well as any other
>> > members
>> > orprospective
>> > members which have visual problems. I would greatly appreciate it if
>> > future
>> > studies could have a link to the text version.Name: Amanda
>> > RobertsonEmail:
>> > zhuuraan84 at yahoo.com
>> > Panelist: YesHousehold ID: 388210Study Number: 35811-1002Web Browser:
>> > Operating System: The following problems/issues were checked: -
>> > Other
>> > Participation
>> >
>> >
>> > Feel free to pass this to everyone you know. This is blatant
>> > discrimination
>> > if I've ever heard of it and in a year, they've done nothing to
>> > change it.
>> >
>> > Amanda Robertson
>> >
>> >
>> > P.s. There are a few portions of their site that aren't accessible
>> > as well
>> > and could easily be made so.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindtlk mailing list
>> > blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> > for blindtlk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/zhuuraan%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:59:15 -0500
> From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> Subject: [Blindtlk] Let us not forget to be human: was: Re: Other
> "wrong" assumptions; Learning body language
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <B256C86BA8494F5AA7F23D385E027104 at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Gary,
>
> I want to remark here on the last line of your message because it stikes
> me
> that you just may be more correct than even you realize. In your message,
> you say, in part, "more of us should be more
> open to admitting that the answers to things obvious to us once weren't"
> How true this remark of yours is. To put it quite frankly, I'm afraid
> that there may be a good many too many of us who, once we find the
> federation philosophy grab on to it so voraciously that when once we find
> something easy, we all to quickly (and perhaps willingly) forget that
> there
> was a time when we too didn't know the things we do now about blindness.
> I
> so well remember when you wrote in a past article in "The Braille monitor"
> that it was becoming all too much the pattern nowadays for some to as good
> as say to a new member of the organization something like this, "welcome.
> Now, here's our philosophy on tape. Go home and study it...".
> I wish I could find it so I could quote it properly, but, just now, It
> seems
> I can't remember enough of the words to locate it in the collection.
>
> Anyhow, I'm glad you brought up this point again. Thanks.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 719-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
>
> Appropriately putting on makeup is a major problem for many blind women,
> and
> more of them should ask those who do it well and more of us should be more
> open to admitting that the answers to things obvious to us once weren't.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>
>
>> Connie:
>> There are sighted individuals who are truly amazed how blind individuals
>> function in such an accomplish manner. A lot of these individual really
>> admire how a blind person is able to function. I'm not certain if a
>> question dealing with how you apply your makeup is a dumb or stupid
>> question. People are just curious.
>> Steve.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>
>>
>>> The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. I was riding the
>>> bus to work one morning and someone asked me how I applied my
>>> makeup. I was in a rotten mood and I responded that my husband's dog
>>> did it with her long tail. She believed it. Again as you already
>>> said, here's your sign.
>>>
>>> Connie Canode
>>> At 09:30 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>>>>I had someone ask me once, If you are blind, how do you eat, you
>>>>know, find your mouth with your fork...?
>>>>I replied with, You can't see it, but I have a very fine fishing
>>>>line around my plate and the other end is around my front tooth. I
>>>>just follow th line up to my mouth.
>>>>
>>>>He said, Wow, I can't even see the line...
>>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>>I had a friend who had a black Lab assistance dog. She was going
>>>>through a Wal-Mart checkout and the lady asked her if that was a
>>>>blind dog? She told her that yeah she was, but that she wore the
>>>>glasses and led her around so the dog would not lose confidence in
>>>>itself...
>>>>Here's your sign!!
>>>>
>>>>Marty
>>>>marty at theblindbean.com
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Corripio"
>>>><gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>To: "Blind-Talk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:05 PM
>>>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Other "wrong" assumptions;Learning body language
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Robert's message about false assumptions in the workplace reminded
>>>>>me of the following incident:
>>>>>The other day while attending a dinner with some coleagues one of
>>>>>them asked "Are you able to eat on your own"? comment which angered
>>>>>me, though I know the sighted person asked me with good intention
>>>>>it still made me a bit angry to the point that I know still lots of
>>>>>work needs to be done (especially in countries where the NFB isn't
>>>>>well-known or even heard of); this is why I really enjoy the list;
>>>>>ai always learn a lot from you guys.
>>>>>This brings me to another question especially for those of you
>>>>>blind from birth: How did you guys learn to use body language? I
>>>>>sometimes get to thinking that aside from integrating more with the
>>>>>sighted world, it saves our mouths from talking, especially while
>>>>>eating or doing other things that at that moment doesn't permit us to
>>>>>speak.
>>>>>also, when saying no (shake of the head) is it from side to side by
>>>>>moving the head from shoulder to shoulder or moving the head
>>>>>clockwise or counterclockwise?
>>>>>also what does srugging the shoulder signify? As you see we blind
>>>>>from birth lose a lot of things by not being able to see. And when
>>>>>I first introduced myself the RP I took it to mean Retinopathy of
>>>>>Prematurity like in spanish, thus didn't think to clarify the concept.
>>>>>Gerardo
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/blindamp%40q.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>> 17:53:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> End of blindtlk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 6
> ***************************************
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