[Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
Gary Wunder
gwunder at earthlink.net
Thu May 28 18:46:18 UTC 2009
I know some people who get angry with the "Over there," remark, but very
often I can tell where they are indicating by the direction of their voice.
Maybe they should understand that "Over there" is about as silly as "watch
out," but I can still get some basic information for orientation and then
have them confirm that indeed I'm now facing the way they are suggesting I
go.
i
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
> Oh, yeah, I hate it when people tell you things like "over there", even
> after you've told them that you can't see where they're pointing. Another
> thing I hate is when people ask me where I'm trying to go. It's like, uh,
> hello, I'm not trying to go anywhere, I'm actually going there. I don't
> know, the wording just bugs me.
> Sarah
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeffrey Schwartz" <sidney.schwartz at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>> Diane,
>> This woman at the bus stop is clearly concerned about your welfare and
>> trying to be helpful. If it is a situation where she can be of
>> assistance,
>> I suggest that you be assertively courteous and instruct her on how she
>> could help in a way that would be comfortable for both of You. (See my
>> earlier post about the arm pullers). If you absolutely don't need any
>> help
>> from her, I suggest that you tell her so in a nice way, acknowledging
>> her
>> kind desire to help you and thanking her for it.
>>
>> Changing the topic a bit here. There's the comical routine where someone
>> is
>> facing you and wanting to give you directions. They will tell you to
>> turn
>> right without realizing that their right is your left. Amazing how often
>> this happens. They can't all be dummies. I think that they just get
>> confused or sort of choke up. The ones who really drive me nuts are the
>> folks who tell you" it's right over there", presumably pointing in a
>> certain
>> direction. These jerks make me really angry. The lack of empathy is
>> appalling. I think that they just don't want to be bothered. Their tone
>> of
>> voice usually reflects this.
>> Jeff
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:55 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>
>> Have you told the lady at the bus stop that you don't appreciate her
>> interference?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>
>>
>>> HI Paul,
>>>
>>> This is an interesting topic and it also gets pretty complicated, at
>>> least where I am concerned.
>>>
>>> As far as your question about making that initial contact, I would say
>>> it is very appropriate. I would most certainly prefer a light touch on
>>> my shoulder than having someone talk to someone who is with me,
>>> inquiring as to what I might like to order, as if I weren't there, or as
>>> if I were a child. I do not object to this at all.
>>>
>>> I have noted in this discussion that there are several people who have
>>> said they don't like to be touched. I have the opposite problem.
>>> Whether it has anything to do with blindness or not, I really don't
>>> know, but I am a person who is tactile, and or affectionate with people
>>> that I know.
>>>
>>> This is gotten me crossways with several people, as I have learned,
>>> sometimes the hard way, that some of us don't' appreciate being touched.
>>>
>>> As a tactile person myself, that is something that I have a real hard
>>> time fathoming or remembering. I don't grab and cling to strangers by
>>> any means, but when there is a person who I know, like or associate
>>> with, it is not uncommon for me to reach out and want to hug someone or
>>> look at their hairstyle, or place a hand gently on their arm or shoulder
>>> when speaking to them. I also welcome warm handshakes, hugs, and the
>>> like from those whom I consider friends and associates. I have had to
>>> learn that some people object to this, and it isn't always easy to
>>> remember.
>>>
>>> Now, like I said, it gets complicated, because what I do object to is
>>> those well meaning sighted people, many of them strangers, who want to
>>> grab me or my clothes or coat or whatever, thinking that they are
>>> helping to guide me or saving me from falling off a curb or something
>>> like that.
>>>
>>> There is a lady who does this every day at the bus stop in the evening,
>>> and I just want to slap her sometimes. They wouldn't take liberties
>>> with and/or manhandle a sighted person like that, and I do not
>>> appreciate it either.
>>>
>>> Diane Graves
>>> Civil Rights Specialist
>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>> 317-232-2647
>>>
>>> "IT is service that measures success."
>>> George Washington Carver
>>>
>>>
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>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Weingartner, Paul
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:02 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>> This is an interesting topic that is very helpful because of the
>>> candidness of the respondents. Because of that I would like to ask a
>>> question.
>>> Sighted people use eye contact to initiate communication. Obviously,
>>> that does not work for initiating communication with a person who is
>>> blind. That is why it is awkward for a waitress in a restaurant or for
>>> a stranger in a mall to make first contact in a way to know the speaker
>>> is addressing the person who is blind.
>>> A number of totally blind friends recommend a light quick touch to let
>>> them know they are the person being addressed, so that is what I
>>> recommend. I was wondering what some or you think.
>>> Also, many people who are totally blind like to hold and cling during a
>>> conversation. That can get pretty awkward and down right embarrassing a
>>> times.
>>> I would appreciate your thoughts.
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Weingartner
>>> Making the Cross Accessible
>>> Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
>>> P 417.831.1964 F 417.862.5120
>>> www.blind.ag.org
>>> www.blindonline.ag.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:47 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>> It has nothing to do with blindness in my case. I just hate being
>>> touched.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>
>>>> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us without
>>> putting
>>>> there hands on us.
>>>> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be touched,
>>> When
>>>> we
>>>> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
>>>> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like this.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This is a very complicated topic. There are those, like me, who
>>> don't
>>>>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I really
>>> don't
>>>>> know very well. I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
>>> spacial
>>>>> concepts during conversations. You don't want to be too close during
>>> a
>>>>> conversation or too far away. I suspect most of us who understand
>>> this
>>>>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they trust.
>>>>> \
>>>>> Steve
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>>>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me to be
>>>>>> quite germ spreading! I like the bowing idea a lot!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I love these kinds of topics. I believe the issue of blind or
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should touch
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>or not. It comes down more to how comfortable you are with what
>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great one.
>>>>>> It's not
>>>>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is a
>>>>>> means of
>>>>>>>communication. In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>>>>> yurself to
>>>>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them into
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>paradigm. This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>>>>> donw with
>>>>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the initiative
>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>and often. When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>>>>> there and
>>>>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers. This calls attention
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game. I
>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands. Long
>>>>>> ago I
>>>>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>>>>> handing as
>>>>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as well. I
>>>>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the older
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand. Proper
>>>>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger generation.
>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so that
>>>>>> my Asian
>>>>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would be
>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>greatful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical psychologist.
>>>>>> My vision
>>>>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace. I drove a car until I was 27
>>>>>> and did not
>>>>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was about
>>>>>> 40. Now, at
>>>>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception. When younger, I
>>>>>> was often
>>>>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was reaching
>>>>>> out to shake
>>>>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing. Eventually, I learned to avoid
>>>>>> this problem
>>>>>>>> by taking the initiative. On occasion I reach out to discover
>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big deal.
>>>>>> I have had
>>>>>>>> no experience with the touching. There are cultural differences
>>>>>> in such
>>>>>>>> nonverbal behaviors. For example, cultures vary in terms of
>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>> regarded as personal space. Groups vary in terms of how close
>>>>>> they stand to
>>>>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching which
>>>>>> is common
>>>>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others. Perhaps your blindness
>>>>>> has led you to
>>>>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may have
>>>>>> felt bad for
>>>>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the person
>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> departed. There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>>>>> blindisms. We all
>>>>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which we
>>>>>> would not do
>>>>>>>> in front of others. There is a tendency, particularly if one
>>>>>> loses their
>>>>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do. I am often
>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>> by what others can see. We assume that if we can't see
>>>>>> something others can
>>>>>>>> not either. This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>>>>> performing these
>>>>>>>> grooming rituals in public. Recently, I have noticed that when
>>>>>> I am walking
>>>>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have with
>>>>>> someone, I
>>>>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking. I am working on
>>>>>> suppressing this
>>>>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>>>>> strange. Behavior
>>>>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in some
>>>>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen as odd
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gerardo,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>>>>> sighted person, I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>>>>> When do you do
>>>>>>>> this? If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>>>>> necessary, since
>>>>>>>> they're participating in the conversation. I think we've all
>>>>>> experienced a
>>>>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they walked
>>>>>> away. Now, if
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure they're
>>>>>> still there
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention, that's
>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> different. I have met sighted people who talk with their hands
>>>>>> and touch my
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis. So, that might not be so
>>>>>> unusual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist working
>>>>>> on my own
>>>>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from you
>>>>>> guys,
>>>>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with blindness.
>>>>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due to
>>>>>> RP; since I
>>>>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching the
>>>>>> arm of the
>>>>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there. I continued
>>>>>> to do this
>>>>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that this
>>>>>> behavior isn't
>>>>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago. I'm still shocked
>>>>>> by this
>>>>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person is
>>>>>> still there?
>>>>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels as
>>>>>> if they're
>>>>>>>> there but aren't there. How have you coped with this situation
>>>>>> in that you
>>>>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it has
>>>>>> happened to
>>>>>>>> some of you?
>>>>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the hand
>>>>>> to shake if
>>>>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to learn
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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