[Blindtlk] you're a liability!
Chasity Jackson
chasityvanda at charter.net
Fri May 29 05:08:47 UTC 2009
Hi Cindy,
I totally agree with what you said, and that's why, even though I was angry,
I went in first. I figured if I didn't, it might have been a wasted trip. I
would have been heartbroken to be that close to making it happen and then
not making it happen due to some jerk's irational fear about blind people.
Yes, we definitely have a lot more work to do.
Chasity
Twitter: kidrockgroupie
Skype: ronnievanzantfan4ever
My MySpace page: www.myspace.com/chasityandvanda
Check out the tribute page I created for my guide dog Vanda at:
www.myspace.com/vandaandchasity
Listen to my podcast at:
http://www.gcast.com/u/Chasityvanda/main.xml
Or by phone at: (559) 553-4627
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] you're a liability!
> Chasity,
>
> Congratulations on actually meeting Kid Rock. I can understand how
> humiliated this treatment made you feel. I'm not sure what else you could
> have done, though. If you had resisted too much, they might not have let
> you see him at all, and after all that travel, you didn't want to risk
> that.
>
> This just shows how much more work we have to do in educating the public.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chasity Jackson" <chasityvanda at charter.net>
> To: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>; "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing
> List"
> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:47 PM
> Subject: [Blindtlk] you're a liability!
>
>
> Ok. I mentioned that I had another experience to recap that dealt with
> uneducated sighted people. Here's the deal. I have been following the
> artist
> Kid Rock for years, hence the twitter name Kid Rock Groupie. I have been
> taking buses and trains to his shows for years, since 2001. And when I do,
> I
> sit up in the front, so he probably recognizes me by now. I have wanted to
> meet him for such a long time, and would go to any length to do so. I am
> on
> MySpace, and I read the bulletins that are sent out from his MySpace. On
> March 4, 2008, I read a bulletin that said he would be at a Waffle House
> in
> Duluth, Georgia. At first, I just thought about how lucky those people
> would
> be to meet him, but then I thought, "This is my chance!" So at that time,
> I
> priced tickets. I found one for $183 on Delta. I had to think it over for
> a
> few days. By the time I thought it over on March 7, the ticket had gone up
> to more than $700. So a friend told me about Airtran, and I found one on
> Airtran for $183. On March 11, I flew to Georgia early in the morning.
> This
> was going to be a one day trip and I was flying back to St. Louis that
> same
> night. I had called the week before to find out which buses or trains I
> would need to take to get from Atlanta to Duluth. Once in Atlanta, I took
> two trains, a bus and a cab to the Waffle House. It was quite a journey,
> but
> well worth it. Once I got out of the cab at the Waffle House, I started to
> head toward the back of the line. A security person stopped me and said,
> "You're blind?" LOL. Like I didn't know. I just replied, "Yes I am, and
> I'm
> here to meet Kid Rock. So I'm headed to the back of the line." "Oh no no
> no," he said. "We can't have a blind person back behind the building where
> we can't supervise you in case you get hurt. You're a liability." I kept
> persisting, and so did they. They pulled a chair out and brought it to the
> side of the building. They said they wanted me to sit in this chair on the
> side of the building, and they wanted Kid Rock to come to me. How
> embarrassing! I was infuriated that they were pulling this with me, when I
> have waited 8 or 9 years to meet him. I felt angry and upset that I would
> not have the same dignity as anyone else. So I refused and kept
> persisting.
> I decided to get in the way and really almost force them to put up with me
> in one way or another. Finally, one guy said, "Let's get this lady in
> first,
> so we can get her moved on and we won't have to deal with her anymore."
> They
> then came to me and told me that either I go in with the first group of
> people and get it over with, or I don't meet him at all. I had spent a lot
> of time, money and effort on this, and I wanted to meet him. So I agreed,
> but I was still angry. So I along with 15 people went inside to wait for
> him. They made us all stand in a line against the window, so he and his
> crew
> could come in. Once I saw them all coming in, I recognized him because he
> was close enough to me. We were supposed to let him walk by, and once he
> was
> positioned, we could get in line to take pictures. But I couldn't take it
> anymore, and I bolted from the line into his arms. We held each other
> tight, and once he stopped, I got in line to take a picture with him. Once
> it came my turn to meet him, and I was next in line, some guy whispered to
> him, "Kid, she's blind." The guy waved his hands and gestured and pointed
> at
> me. I had greeted Bob at the door when he first came inside, and I had my
> dog with me, so he obviously realized this or he too was blind. LOL. So
> instead of acknowledging this jerk's comment, Kid, or Bobby as I call him,
> didn't acknowledge it, instead talking to me and saying, "We just met." I
> was just humiliated with the way I was treated by staff when I wanted to
> stand in line outside like everyone else. I dn't like that liability
> comment
> and feel that people use it too loosely when they are uncomfortable. I was
> infuriated and hurt that I had to deal with this during a significant
> moment
> in my life. Being involved with following Kid Rock is literally my biggest
> passion, and I take it very seriously. I go to a few of his shows per
> year.
> Meeting him that day has only fueled my fire to do it again. I'm going to
> 3
> of his shows this summer, and hope maybe just by chance I might run across
> him somewhere. My ultimate goal is to get to know him more closely and
> better. I know that he does know some of his fans personally, and I don't
> see any reason why I can't be one of them. I don't find that unrealistic
> at
> all, and I'm very determined to make it happen. I will stick to it until
> it
> does. My dad jokes that Kid Rock should put a restraining order against me
> as much as I follow him. LOL.
> Chasity
> Twitter: kidrockgroupie
> Skype: ronnievanzantfan4ever
> My MySpace page: www.myspace.com/chasityandvanda
> Check out the tribute page I created for my guide dog Vanda at:
> www.myspace.com/vandaandchasity
> Listen to my podcast at:
> http://www.gcast.com/u/Chasityvanda/main.xml
> Or by phone at: (559) 553-4627
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>> Perhaps my experience is not commonly shared, but there are situations in
>> which I do count steps. It is helpful to me to know that my hotel room is
>> 17 steps from the beginning of the corridor. I've gotten to where I can
>> count them in the back of my mind and still carry on a conversation or
>> think about something else of importance while I'm doing it. The step
>> counting technique is not something I would like to try to use if I was
>> 150 steps away from my desired location, but I think there are times when
>> a step count gives me information, where no other landmarks exist.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>
>>
>>> Oh, yeah, I hate that one. I remember being taught in the first grade
>>> to
>>> count steps, and then in the third grade or so, I started being taught
>>> to
>>> use a cane, and I have never counted steps since. I hate it when people
>>> think that we count steps, and I suspect that the reason that one of the
>>> people in the school faculty wanted me to learn to count steps is that
>>> they didn't know that blind people didn't do that, because they weren't
>>> exposed to blind people before me, as I was the only blind person in the
>>> school.
>>> Sarah
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>
>>>> Allot of blind people like to touch because the blind schools never
>>>> told
>>>> them that you can't do that.
>>>> I know with the one I whent to did that, The parants will let the
>>>> schools raise the kids.
>>>> I know of allot of people that came out, and they will touch and rock,
>>>> and shake there heads all the time, and people see that and think we
>>>> are
>>>> all like that.
>>>> Or they think we count steps.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net>
>>>> To: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>; "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing
>>>> List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:51 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Look "normal?" That's open to individual interpffetation. I,
>>>>> unfortunately, think it sucks to appear blind, or worse, to appear
>>>>> blind and helpless, or lost. I realize that these are manageable
>>>>> stresses, but man! That'll weigh on a Soul!
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net
>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:41:55 -0500
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>Can you ever say that again Trish.
>>>>>
>>>>>>This very morning, for example, I was at the doctor's office
>>>>> being
>>>>>>officially discharged, (from an auto accident in which I was) and
>>>>> I heard
>>>>>>the receptionist saying "hi". Her face was turned to me, and so,
>>>>> I reckoned
>>>>>>she was addressing me; but no. She was talking on the phone. I
>>>>> guess maybe
>>>>>>turning one's face toward the person just isn't enough sometimes;
>>>>> but, I
>>>>>>think that it stands you a better chance of looking normal if you
>>>>> do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>>So far as touching is concerned, My girlfriend just loves a nice
>>>>> very long
>>>>>>rub on the soles of her callused constantly bare feet; but, I
>>>>> don't go for
>>>>>>the stereotypical blind monster who has only sockets for eyes and
>>>>> feels all
>>>>>>over people's faces; yuck!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>>>>> abroad you
>>>>>>come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from
>>>>> your own land"
>>>>>>George Seferis
>>>>>
>>>>>>Phone or Fax::
>>>>>>+1 (985) 360-3614
>>>>>>Cell:
>>>>>>+1 (985) 719-2938
>>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>>rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>>>>>Skype Name:
>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:47 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I hate it when that happens! I walk to the appointment desk, the
>>>>>>lady behind it says "hi", I start to state my name, and the
>>>>>>person I'm with says "she's on the phone." Grrrr!
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:21:43 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Diane,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am not a person who readily hugs or touches others. But, I
>>>>>>don't mind if
>>>>>>>someone touches my arm or wants a hug. I think, when it comes to
>>>>>>someone,
>>>>>>>like a waitress speaking, it would be easier if they would touch
>>>>>>a shoulder
>>>>>>>or my hand. There have been times when someone is talking to me,
>>>>>>but I
>>>>>>>didn't know it, or they might have been talking to someone else,
>>>>>>near me,
>>>>>>>and I respond. That's sometimes difficult. Most of the time,
>>>>>>you can tell
>>>>>>>if someone is looking toward you when they're speaking. But, if
>>>>>>there's
>>>>>>>someone else, in the same direction, it's hard to know,
>>>>>>specifically, who
>>>>>>>they're looking at.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is turning out to be a very interesting topic.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cindy
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Graves, Diane" <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov
>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:41 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>HI Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is an interesting topic and it also gets pretty complicated,
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>least where I am concerned.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>As far as your question about making that initial contact, I
>>>>>>would say
>>>>>>>it is very appropriate. I would most certainly prefer a light
>>>>>>touch on
>>>>>>>my shoulder than having someone talk to someone who is with me,
>>>>>>>inquiring as to what I might like to order, as if I weren't
>>>>>>there, or as
>>>>>>>if I were a child. I do not object to this at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have noted in this discussion that there are several people who
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>said they don't like to be touched. I have the opposite problem.
>>>>>>>Whether it has anything to do with blindness or not, I really
>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>know, but I am a person who is tactile, and or affectionate with
>>>>>>people
>>>>>>>that I know.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is gotten me crossways with several people, as I have
>>>>>>learned,
>>>>>>>sometimes the hard way, that some of us don't' appreciate being
>>>>>>touched.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>As a tactile person myself, that is something that I have a real
>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>time fathoming or remembering. I don't grab and cling to
>>>>>>strangers by
>>>>>>>any means, but when there is a person who I know, like or
>>>>>>associate
>>>>>>>with, it is not uncommon for me to reach out and want to hug
>>>>>>someone or
>>>>>>>look at their hairstyle, or place a hand gently on their arm or
>>>>>>shoulder
>>>>>>>when speaking to them. I also welcome warm handshakes, hugs, and
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>like from those whom I consider friends and associates. I have
>>>>>>had to
>>>>>>>learn that some people object to this, and it isn't always easy
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>remember.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, like I said, it gets complicated, because what I do object
>>>>>>to is
>>>>>>>those well meaning sighted people, many of them strangers, who
>>>>>>want to
>>>>>>>grab me or my clothes or coat or whatever, thinking that they are
>>>>>>>helping to guide me or saving me from falling off a curb or
>>>>>>something
>>>>>>>like that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>There is a lady who does this every day at the bus stop in the
>>>>>>evening,
>>>>>>>and I just want to slap her sometimes. They wouldn't take
>>>>>>liberties
>>>>>>>with and/or manhandle a sighted person like that, and I do not
>>>>>>>appreciate it either.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Diane Graves
>>>>>>>Civil Rights Specialist
>>>>>>>Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>>>>>>Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>>>>>>317-232-2647
>>>>>
>>>>>>>"IT is service that measures success."
>>>>>>>George Washington Carver
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>>>>>>confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only
>>>>>>for the
>>>>>>>individual or entity(ies)
>>>>>>>named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended
>>>>>>recipient, be
>>>>>>>advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution,
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>acting in reliance
>>>>>>>upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to
>>>>>>sender to
>>>>>>>arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>>>>>>Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Weingartner, Paul
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:02 AM
>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an interesting topic that is very helpful because of the
>>>>>>>candidness of the respondents. Because of that I would like to
>>>>>>ask a
>>>>>>>question.
>>>>>>>Sighted people use eye contact to initiate communication.
>>>>>>Obviously,
>>>>>>>that does not work for initiating communication with a person who
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>blind. That is why it is awkward for a waitress in a restaurant
>>>>>>or for
>>>>>>>a stranger in a mall to make first contact in a way to know the
>>>>>>speaker
>>>>>>>is addressing the person who is blind.
>>>>>>>A number of totally blind friends recommend a light quick touch
>>>>>>to let
>>>>>>>them know they are the person being addressed, so that is what I
>>>>>>>recommend. I was wondering what some or you think.
>>>>>>>Also, many people who are totally blind like to hold and cling
>>>>>>during a
>>>>>>>conversation. That can get pretty awkward and down right
>>>>>>embarrassing a
>>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>>I would appreciate your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Paul Weingartner
>>>>>>>Making the Cross Accessible
>>>>>>>Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
>>>>>>>P 417.831.1964 F 417.862.5120
>>>>>>>www.blind.ag.org
>>>>>>>www.blindonline.ag.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>[mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:47 AM
>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>>It has nothing to do with blindness in my case. I just hate
>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>touched.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Steve
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com
>>>>>>>To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us without
>>>>>>>putting
>>>>>>>> there hands on us.
>>>>>>>> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be
>>>>>>touched,
>>>>>>>When
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
>>>>>>>> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like
>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a very complicated topic. There are those, like me, who
>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I
>>>>>>really
>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>> know very well. I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
>>>>>>>spacial
>>>>>>>>> concepts during conversations. You don't want to be too close
>>>>>>during
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>> conversation or too far away. I suspect most of us who
>>>>>>understand
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they
>>>>>>trust.
>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net
>>>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>>>>>>>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me to
>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>> quite germ spreading! I like the bowing idea a lot!
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>>>>>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I love these kinds of topics. I believe the issue of blind or
>>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should touch
>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>or not. It comes down more to how comfortable you are with what
>>>>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great one.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not
>>>>>>>>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is a
>>>>>>>>>> means of
>>>>>>>>>>>communication. In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>>>>>>>>> yurself to
>>>>>>>>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them into
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>paradigm. This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>>>>>>>>> donw with
>>>>>>>>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the initiative
>>>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>>>>>and often. When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>>>>>>>>> there and
>>>>>>>>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers. This calls attention
>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game. I
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands. Long
>>>>>>>>>> ago I
>>>>>>>>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>>>>>>>>> handing as
>>>>>>>>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as well. I
>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the older
>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand. Proper
>>>>>>>>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger generation.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so that
>>>>>>>>>> my Asian
>>>>>>>>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would be
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>greatful.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Joel
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical psychologist.
>>>>>>>>>> My vision
>>>>>>>>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace. I drove a car until I was 27
>>>>>>>>>> and did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was about
>>>>>>>>>> 40. Now, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception. When younger, I
>>>>>>>>>> was often
>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was reaching
>>>>>>>>>> out to shake
>>>>>>>>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing. Eventually, I learned to avoid
>>>>>>>>>> this problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> by taking the initiative. On occasion I reach out to discover
>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big deal.
>>>>>>>>>> I have had
>>>>>>>>>>>> no experience with the touching. There are cultural
>>>>>>>>>>>> differences
>>>>>>>>>> in such
>>>>>>>>>>>> nonverbal behaviors. For example, cultures vary in terms of
>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>> regarded as personal space. Groups vary in terms of how close
>>>>>>>>>> they stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> is common
>>>>>>>>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others. Perhaps your blindness
>>>>>>>>>> has led you to
>>>>>>>>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may have
>>>>>>>>>> felt bad for
>>>>>>>>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the person
>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>> departed. There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>>>>>>>>> blindisms. We all
>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which we
>>>>>>>>>> would not do
>>>>>>>>>>>> in front of others. There is a tendency, particularly if one
>>>>>>>>>> loses their
>>>>>>>>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>> by what others can see. We assume that if we can't see
>>>>>>>>>> something others can
>>>>>>>>>>>> not either. This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>>>>>>>>> performing these
>>>>>>>>>>>> grooming rituals in public. Recently, I have noticed that when
>>>>>>>>>> I am walking
>>>>>>>>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have with
>>>>>>>>>> someone, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking. I am working on
>>>>>>>>>> suppressing this
>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>>>>>>>>> strange. Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in some
>>>>>>>>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen as
>>>>>>>>>>>> odd
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>>>>>>>>> sighted person, I
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>>>>>>>>> When do you do
>>>>>>>>>>>> this? If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>> necessary, since
>>>>>>>>>>>> they're participating in the conversation. I think we've all
>>>>>>>>>> experienced a
>>>>>>>>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they walked
>>>>>>>>>> away. Now, if
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure
>>>>>>>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>>> still there
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention, that's
>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>> different. I have met sighted people who talk with their hands
>>>>>>>>>> and touch my
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis. So, that might not be so
>>>>>>>>>> unusual.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist
>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>> on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from you
>>>>>>>>>> guys,
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with blindness.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due to
>>>>>>>>>> RP; since I
>>>>>>>>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching the
>>>>>>>>>> arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> continued
>>>>>>>>>> to do this
>>>>>>>>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that this
>>>>>>>>>> behavior isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago. I'm still
>>>>>>>>>>>> shocked
>>>>>>>>>> by this
>>>>>>>>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person is
>>>>>>>>>> still there?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels as
>>>>>>>>>> if they're
>>>>>>>>>>>> there but aren't there. How have you coped with this situation
>>>>>>>>>> in that you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it has
>>>>>>>>>> happened to
>>>>>>>>>>>> some of you?
>>>>>>>>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>>>> to shake if
>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>>>>>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to learn
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>>>>> 5%40verizon
>>>>>>>>>>>> .net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sidney.
>>>>>>>>>> schwartz%40
>>>>>>>>>>>> sbcglobal.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/jzimba%
>>>>>>>>>> 40cavtel.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>deeley%
>>>>>>>40insightbb.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>-------
>>>>>>>--------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release
>>>>>>Date:
>>>>>>>>> 05/24/09
>>>>>>>>> 07:09:00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dewey.b
>>>>>>radley%
>>>>>>>40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/stevep.
>>>>>>deeley%
>>>>>>>40insightbb.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>-------
>>>>>>>--------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.40/2135 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>05/26/09
>>>>>>>08:53:00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pweinga
>>>>>>rtner%4
>>>>>>>0ag.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves
>>>>>>%40icrc
>>>>>>>..in.gov
>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>5%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>>>%40metrocast.net
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetj
>>>>> r%40comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/slosser
>>>>> %40metrocast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dewey.bradley%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/sarahb006%40comcast.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/chasityvanda%40charter.net
>
>
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