[Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
Peter Donahue
pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net
Thu Aug 26 01:54:00 UTC 2010
Good evening everyone,
Before we can address any of these issues and concerns let's first get
the technology perfected, put prototypes on the road, provide lots of
opportunities for public demonstrations and prove that this is possible
before we worry about all of the other issues and doom this thing to failure
before the technology has a chance to be proven. What if the technology
succeeds?
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
And here's another point. Let me speak frankly here. I'm personally all
for what the NFB is doing with the blind driver thing; however, there's one
very critically important consideration which the advocates of blind driving
are overlooking. Let me state this in the form of a question. What will
the blind driver do when; (not if mind you but when), the technology fails.
Folks, I'm very concerned. Unless I'm missing something here, it looks to
me like we're banking almost entirely, (if not totally and completely), upon
the technology to get the car we can drive. Y'all, I think this is a very
serious mistake!!! Back in my days as a student at the Louisiana Center for
the Blind, we were always taught that the technology, while good, was not
and is not a panacea; take the slate and stylus over the clunky and heavier
Braille writer we all know and love for taking notes for example. For
another, take the use of a human reader over the use of the scanner and OCR.
The type writer over the computer...need I go on? Point is this. Sooner or
later, whether we like it or not, and whether we want to admit it or not,
the technology is going to fail. We'd better have it in our heads what
we're going to do when that happens. I think it's quite neieve to suppose
that this will not happen. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do this; nor,
for that matter, am I saying that we shouldn't rely on the technology; but,
we're being stupidly neieve if we imagine that total reliance on the
technology alone is the best way to get us there. Strong words you say?
Well, yes. But, I really do think we're fooling ourselves if we don't
seriously consider this point.
I suppose that blind kids today have no idea how the blind of past
generations did things. How, for example, did we type before computers?
How did we check what we were typing and make sure it was correct? Well, we
did. That's what correction tape is for. Back then, there were ways of
getting those things done; and, we did them. I am a bit concerned that
perhaps, with our rush forward in to this, we are or may be overlooking some
very important points of basic function here.
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
A Very Proud and Happy Mac User!!!
E-Mail:
rforetjr at comcast dot net
Skype Name:
barefootedray
On Aug 25, 2010, at 6:14 PM, Cindy Handel wrote:
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that anyone would even suggest that the cost
of these cars, should they ever materialize, would go down after the R&D has
been recouped.
I believe it's a very interesting project. But, if, in a number of years, a
car is actually developed and ready to be sold, the next thing we'll have to
accomplish, before we can actually drive the thing, is convince insurance
companies to insure us. I believe that will be at least as time consuming
as producing a car we can drive.
Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing List"
<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
hi,
if you really believe that theory, look how jaws software has never
decreased a penny since 1995.
Bryan Schulz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
> Bryan,
> Though the car is expensive now, perhaps it will not be so much after
> the R&D is recouped. In addition, it may not ever be something I will see
> manifested in my lifetime, but perhaps in my blind nephew's lifetime.
> Furthermore, as the blind gain the independence that comes from this sort
> of technology, other forms of technology that will level the playing field
> for us may come out of it!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
>
>
>> yea right,
>> if she can barely get by now how is she supposed to take an extra
>> mortgage to help cover a 75+k car?
>> are our heads in the sand?
>>
>> Bryan Schulz
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
>>
>>
>>> Hello Mary and everyone,
>>>
>>> This is exactly why the Blind Driver Challenge is so important and a
>>> project to be persued now. If you didn't see it earlier here is the link
>>> for
>>> the new Blind Driver Challenge Web Site:
>>> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>>
>>> I've all ready linked our chapter Web site to it and will add the
>>> link
>>> to our home page. What really thrills me is the vast amount of content
>>> all
>>> ready on the site and not a single page on witch do the words "Coming
>>> Soon"
>>> appear. Great work Jernigan Institute and NFB!
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mari Hunziker" <marihunziker at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing List"
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:55 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
>>>
>>>
>>> I have gotten to the point that I would rather sit at home and do
>>> nothing
>>> than ask someone for a ride. Some people get so frustrated or seem to be
>>> bothered by having to help me out sometimes. Yesterday, I paid a friend
>>> $30
>>> dollars in gas money to drive my son home from school. My 1st grade son,
>>> is
>>> not eligible to ride the school bus because his elementary school only
>>> offers busing to kids with special needs. I asked for special
>>> accommodations
>>> for our situation and they were not able to help. I paid the my friend
>>> because I could not see myself walking 1.75 miles to the school and back
>>> another 1.75 miles back in 105 degree heat. I told the district
>>> transportation manager that when the heat index is so dangerously hot it
>>> should be mandatory that kids get rides home somehow. It breaks my heart
>>> that kids have to walk, ride their bike, etc home in that heat. My
>>> transportation needs have been met by a kind friend willing to drive out
>>> of
>>> her way to bring my son home. I was so blessed the last couple of years
>>> to
>>> have a friend in my neighborhood be willing to carpool with us. My
>>> husband
>>> drove the kids in the morning and she brought them home after school. It
>>> was
>>> great. But of course things always change and we (I) must learn to deal
>>> with
>>> it like I am trying to. I just signed my 2 year old daughter up for
>>> Dance
>>> class and then called up CARTS to arrange a ride. So happy they can take
>>> us
>>> and charge us $3 each way. We will see how it goes. I wish visually
>>> impaired
>>> / blind people received a living expense stipend like they do in Canada.
>>> It
>>> would be so helpful for those of us living on a budget and for those of
>>> us,
>>> like myself who live in the suburbs with no public nor para transit
>>> system.
>>>
>>> You all are fabulous. Thanks for all of the words of wisdom posted on
>>> here.
>>> I love it.
>>>
>>> Mari Hunziker
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Marion Gwizdala
>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Diane,
>>>> I also find it interesting that people are "amazed" that it might
>>>> take
>>>> us
>>>> 2 hours to get somewhere that, by car, only takes 30 minutes. They also
>>>> express concern over how much a taxicab cost. I point out to them that
>>>> I
>>>> get
>>>> a lot of work done on my commutes by making telephone calls and doing
>>>> writing. I also share with them the comparitive savings of taxicabs,
>>>> when
>>>> necessary, and public transportation for regular, everyday needs, as
>>>> opposed
>>>> to a $300 car payment, $500 insurance payment, $200/month gas budget,
>>>> not
>>>> to
>>>> mention tune-ups, oil changes, tires and rotations, etc.
>>>> I generally use the public transportation fixed route system for most
>>>> of
>>>> my travel needs, Para transit when necessary, and taxicabs for those
>>>> times
>>>> when neither of those forms of transportation are viable, e.g.
>>>> inclement
>>>> weather, gigs where I need to take my sound gear, and entertainment
>>>> that
>>>> gets out after the buses stop running! I guess it's all a matter of
>>>> perspective!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graves, Diane"
>>>> <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
>>>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:49 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Mary,
>>>>>
>>>>> You know it's funny. Another thing that came to mind after I sent my
>>>>> post
>>>>> was my amazement at how frustrated I've seen some sighted people get,
>>>>> when
>>>>> they have to hop into the driver's seat and take a 15 minute ride in
>>>>> their
>>>>> car, to go somewhere that they weren't planning to go. Maybe to run an
>>>>> errand to the grocery store, or go pick up a child, or take a child's
>>>>> friend
>>>>> home. It just blows me away. I'm like "give me a break."
>>>>>
>>>>> My sister-in-law is like that. She always wants me to come out into
>>>>> the
>>>>> suburbs to her house, but never wants to come into the city to pick me
>>>>> up
>>>>> or
>>>>> visit me. I'm thinking, "hey lady, you're the one who drives!"
>>>>>
>>>>> But see, even if you are sighted you get locked into a routine, and
>>>>> are
>>>>> frustrated by the little unexpected inconveniences that come up.
>>>>> Inconveniences that seem almost ridiculous to a blind person who would
>>>>> love
>>>>> to be able to drive independently and take care of some of those
>>>>> things
>>>>> without the hassle of planning.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>> Civil Rights Specialist
>>>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>>>> 317-232-2647
>>>>>
>>>>> "It is service that measures success."
>>>>> George Washington Carver
>>>>>
>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>>>> confidential
>>>>> and/or legally privileged information intended only for the individual
>>>>> or
>>>>> entity(ies)
>>>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>>>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>>>>> acting
>>>>> in reliance
>>>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>>>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>>>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Mari Hunziker
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:23 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Diane and Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your words of wisdom have left me to ponder about what the Lord has in
>>>>> store
>>>>> for me as a mother of two wonderful children. I know that I was given
>>>>> this
>>>>> opportunity for a reason. I know that being visually impaired will
>>>>> only
>>>>> enhance my life. Yes, Diane I wish as well that I could spend $1000 in
>>>>> an
>>>>> afternoon and not think twice. Being financially secure does help make
>>>>> life
>>>>> a bit more comfortable but not necessarily happier. It takes a lot
>>>>> more
>>>>> self
>>>>> assurance of oneself to be happy. That is what I think my real issue
>>>>> is.
>>>>> I
>>>>> want to be happy with all that I have. I am most of the time. Its that
>>>>> emotional roller coaster that I don't enjoy riding at times. But for
>>>>> the
>>>>> most part life is good. Thank you for your words of wisdom. I really
>>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>> Mari Hunziker
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Graves, Diane <dgraves at icrc.in.gov>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mary,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, please know that I do understand your feelings and
>>>>>> frustrations
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> too well. I have definitely been there before, and occasionally still
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> there. I think there was a lot of wisdom to be found in Gary's post,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> I'll just second it with a couple of points.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't care how well adjusted and accomplished you are as a blind
>>>>>> person,
>>>>>> there are times when having sight would simply be more convenient. It
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> get frustrating sometimes. But if you think about it, this is true in
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> areas of our lives. I often find myself feeling envious of those who
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> shopping, spend $1000 in an afternoon, and not think twice about it,
>>>>>> while I
>>>>>> am struggling to make sure all of the bills are paid. I am frustrated
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the members of congress charged with making our tax and economic
>>>>>> decisions,
>>>>>> are the people making more money than most of us will ever see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am often disgusted by the women who complain and refer to
>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> "fat" because they can't fit into a size 4 dress, when I would give
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> to see a size 14 again
>>>>>> . These are just some small, maybe silly, examples, but my point is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> blindness is just one of the many frustrations that life has to
>>>>>> offer.
>>>>>> Life
>>>>>> has dealt us all a partial deck of cards, and we just have to learn
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> play
>>>>>> the best game we can with the cards that we've been dealt. But, as
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> skilled card player knows, the more you practice, the more skilled
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> become.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just know that while you are concerned about transportation issues
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> school is concerned, some other mother is agonizing over how she is
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> get new shoes for her child, or pay for the after school childcare.
>>>>>> Another
>>>>>> mother is worried about how she is going to get her wayward,
>>>>>> rebellious
>>>>>> teenager through high school in one piece, and on and on. This is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> say that your concerns aren't frustrating and understandable. Please
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> think that that is what I am saying at all. I'm just saying that the
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> community is not the only population that encounters these
>>>>>> frustrations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this makes a little bit of sense, at least. Gary did a much
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> job than I. If you are able to attend an NFB Training Center I think
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> would be great for you. It is always something that I wanted to do,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> never had the opportunity. All the reports I have heard though have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> amazing, and, if nothing else, it would offer you support and build
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> level of self confidence. I know that having a child would pose
>>>>>> concerns
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this area too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feel free to vent to us any time. We are all here to help you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (big cyber hug for you)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>>> Civil Rights Specialist
>>>>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
>>>>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
>>>>>> 317-232-2647
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It is service that measures success."
>>>>>> George Washington Carver
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
>>>>>> confidential
>>>>>> and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
>>>>>> individual
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> entity(ies)
>>>>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>>>>>> acting
>>>>>> in reliance
>>>>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
>>>>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender to
>>>>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
>>>>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Mari Hunziker
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:13 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you so much for sharing that Mike. I would love to learn more
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> the NFB centers. I am now needing more assistance in finding creative
>>>>>> ways
>>>>>> of finding transportation for my son to get to and from school each
>>>>>> day.
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> being able to drive or to do other things is a constant struggle. I
>>>>>> wish
>>>>>> there was someway to get over the emotional roller coaster I ride
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> day.
>>>>>> Some days thinking its a blessing to be blind and other days it is a
>>>>>> curse.
>>>>>> How have you all gotten over this?
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Mari Hunziker
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of fact, one of the things done at our NFB centers is
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> some grilling and other chores that involve working with fire
>>>>>>> precisely
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> get people over their fear of being burned. It's not thatanyone
>>>>>>> wishes
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> burned but (a) blindness doesn't increase one's risks assuming one
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> careful and (b) we want to turn that fear into what might be termed
>>>>>> healthy
>>>>>>> respect for fire which still allows one to work with it. At the end
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> day, it becomes another lesson that blindness need not prevent us
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> leading normal lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
>>>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:22 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A totally blind person can grill or smoke. i have a gas grill,
>>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>>> large off-set smoker and use them regularly. I have also grilled
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> charcoal -- although the gas grill is easier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are lots of techniques to do stuff. One good source is our
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> cooks list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-cooks_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> p.s. You mentioned a "fear of getting burned." Just like with an
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> oven,
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> pot of boiling water, a gas stove etc., you can get burned if you
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> stuff carefully and correctly, but like with the other things
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 08:42 AM 8/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was anyone of you grillers afraid of the fire and the potential
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>>> burned. That is what keeps me from doing it. We have a charcoal
>>>>>>>>> grill/smoker. My brother, father and husband have mastered the
>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>> taste
>>>>>>>>> of grilled food. I have always thought that I could not grill or
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> of that nature because I am blind(visually impaired). I now think
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> just be a fear of getting burned. I do cook fairly well in doors,
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> thought about trying it outdoors. The next time we grill out. I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> pay more attention on how it is done so that I may someday try
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Who
>>>>>>>>> knows, I may like doing it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com
>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marihunziker%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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