[Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
Robert J Smith
rsmith247 at csc.com
Thu Aug 26 12:05:21 UTC 2010
Hi all -- I agree with Ray's points below. Not only could the technology
fail, but driving conditions and variables are changing all the time and I
don't believe right now that a computer program or programs are going to
have the capability to assess constantly changing variables. I feel that
the research and experimentation is good and other good things could come
out of this along the way but I don't see us totally driving by ourselves
for at least ten years. I also believe that we will be able to drive in
limited areas. One sighted friend of mine said once that jets fly on
autopilot, why not cars? The conditions in the air change much less in my
view than those on the ground can (for example you don't have jets pulling
across in front of you, or suddenly slowing down in front of you for
whatever reason) so that's more plausible right now.
Bob Smith
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From:
Constance Canode <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
To:
Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Date:
08/25/2010 11:37 PM
Subject:
Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
A very good point Ray and I agree with you. Another question is what
happens when an unexpected patch of black ice comes up. That happens
a lot here in the cold Wisconsin Winters. There are a lot of
unexpected occurrences while driving down the road. Rick and I were
in a cab one time and we just missed a huge rock that flew out of a
truck. It just missed the window. Luckily the cab driver had good
reflexrs, but what would that car tell us.
Connie Canode
At 08:44 PM 8/25/2010, you wrote:
>And here's another point. Let me speak frankly here. I'm
>personally all for what the NFB is doing with the blind driver
>thing; however, there's one very critically important consideration
>which the advocates of blind driving are overlooking. Let me state
>this in the form of a question. What will the blind driver do when;
>(not if mind you but when), the technology fails. Folks, I'm very
>concerned. Unless I'm missing something here, it looks to me like
>we're banking almost entirely, (if not totally and completely), upon
>the technology to get the car we can drive. Y'all, I think this is
>a very serious mistake!!! Back in my days as a student at the
>Louisiana Center for the Blind, we were always taught that the
>technology, while good, was not and is not a panacea; take the
>slate and stylus over the clunky and heavier Braille writer we all
>know and love for taking notes for example. For another, take the
>use of a human reader over the use of the scanner and OCR. The type
>writer over the computer...need I go on? Point is this. Sooner or
>later, whether we like it or not, and whether we want to admit it or
>not, the technology is going to fail. We'd better have it in our
>heads what we're going to do when that happens. I think it's quite
>neieve to suppose that this will not happen. I'm not saying that we
>shouldn't do this; nor, for that matter, am I saying that we
>shouldn't rely on the technology; but, we're being stupidly neieve
>if we imagine that total reliance on the technology alone is the
>best way to get us there. Strong words you say? Well, yes. But, I
>really do think we're fooling ourselves if we don't seriously
>consider this point.
> I suppose that blind kids today have no idea how the blind
> of past generations did things. How, for example, did we type
> before computers? How did we check what we were typing and make
> sure it was correct? Well, we did. That's what correction tape is
> for. Back then, there were ways of getting those things done; and,
> we did them. I am a bit concerned that perhaps, with our rush
> forward in to this, we are or may be overlooking some very
> important points of basic function here.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
>A Very Proud and Happy Mac User!!!
>
>E-Mail:
>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>Skype Name:
>barefootedray
>
>On Aug 25, 2010, at 6:14 PM, Cindy Handel wrote:
>
>Yeah, I find it hard to believe that anyone would even suggest that the
cost
>of these cars, should they ever materialize, would go down after the R&D
has
>been recouped.
>
>I believe it's a very interesting project. But, if, in a number of
years, a
>car is actually developed and ready to be sold, the next thing we'll have
to
>accomplish, before we can actually drive the thing, is convince insurance
>companies to insure us. I believe that will be at least as time
consuming
>as producing a car we can drive.
>
>Cindy
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing List"
><blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
>
>
>hi,
>
>if you really believe that theory, look how jaws software has never
>decreased a penny since 1995.
>
>Bryan Schulz
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
>
>
> > Bryan,
> > Though the car is expensive now, perhaps it will not be so much
after
> > the R&D is recouped. In addition, it may not ever be something I will
see
> > manifested in my lifetime, but perhaps in my blind nephew's lifetime.
> > Furthermore, as the blind gain the independence that comes from this
sort
> > of technology, other forms of technology that will level the playing
field
> > for us may come out of it!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> > Marion Gwizdala
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
> >
> >
> >> yea right,
> >> if she can barely get by now how is she supposed to take an extra
> >> mortgage to help cover a 75+k car?
> >> are our heads in the sand?
> >>
> >> Bryan Schulz
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello Mary and everyone,
> >>>
> >>> This is exactly why the Blind Driver Challenge is so important and
a
> >>> project to be persued now. If you didn't see it earlier here is the
link
> >>> for
> >>> the new Blind Driver Challenge Web Site:
> >>> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
> >>>
> >>> I've all ready linked our chapter Web site to it and will add the
> >>> link
> >>> to our home page. What really thrills me is the vast amount of
content
> >>> all
> >>> ready on the site and not a single page on witch do the words
"Coming
> >>> Soon"
> >>> appear. Great work Jernigan Institute and NFB!
> >>>
> >>> Peter Donahue
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Mari Hunziker" <marihunziker at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing
List"
> >>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:55 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] The Cost of Independent Travel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have gotten to the point that I would rather sit at home and do
> >>> nothing
> >>> than ask someone for a ride. Some people get so frustrated or seem
to be
> >>> bothered by having to help me out sometimes. Yesterday, I paid a
friend
> >>> $30
> >>> dollars in gas money to drive my son home from school. My 1st grade
son,
> >>> is
> >>> not eligible to ride the school bus because his elementary school
only
> >>> offers busing to kids with special needs. I asked for special
> >>> accommodations
> >>> for our situation and they were not able to help. I paid the my
friend
> >>> because I could not see myself walking 1.75 miles to the school and
back
> >>> another 1.75 miles back in 105 degree heat. I told the district
> >>> transportation manager that when the heat index is so dangerously
hot it
> >>> should be mandatory that kids get rides home somehow. It breaks my
heart
> >>> that kids have to walk, ride their bike, etc home in that heat. My
> >>> transportation needs have been met by a kind friend willing to drive
out
> >>> of
> >>> her way to bring my son home. I was so blessed the last couple of
years
> >>> to
> >>> have a friend in my neighborhood be willing to carpool with us. My
> >>> husband
> >>> drove the kids in the morning and she brought them home after
school. It
> >>> was
> >>> great. But of course things always change and we (I) must learn to
deal
> >>> with
> >>> it like I am trying to. I just signed my 2 year old daughter up for
> >>> Dance
> >>> class and then called up CARTS to arrange a ride. So happy they can
take
> >>> us
> >>> and charge us $3 each way. We will see how it goes. I wish visually
> >>> impaired
> >>> / blind people received a living expense stipend like they do in
Canada.
> >>> It
> >>> would be so helpful for those of us living on a budget and for those
of
> >>> us,
> >>> like myself who live in the suburbs with no public nor para transit
> >>> system.
> >>>
> >>> You all are fabulous. Thanks for all of the words of wisdom posted
on
> >>> here.
> >>> I love it.
> >>>
> >>> Mari Hunziker
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Marion Gwizdala
> >>> <blind411 at verizon.net>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Diane,
> >>>> I also find it interesting that people are "amazed" that it might
> >>>> take
> >>>> us
> >>>> 2 hours to get somewhere that, by car, only takes 30 minutes. They
also
> >>>> express concern over how much a taxicab cost. I point out to them
that
> >>>> I
> >>>> get
> >>>> a lot of work done on my commutes by making telephone calls and
doing
> >>>> writing. I also share with them the comparitive savings of
taxicabs,
> >>>> when
> >>>> necessary, and public transportation for regular, everyday needs,
as
> >>>> opposed
> >>>> to a $300 car payment, $500 insurance payment, $200/month gas
budget,
> >>>> not
> >>>> to
> >>>> mention tune-ups, oil changes, tires and rotations, etc.
> >>>> I generally use the public transportation fixed route system for
most
> >>>> of
> >>>> my travel needs, Para transit when necessary, and taxicabs for
those
> >>>> times
> >>>> when neither of those forms of transportation are viable, e.g.
> >>>> inclement
> >>>> weather, gigs where I need to take my sound gear, and entertainment
> >>>> that
> >>>> gets out after the buses stop running! I guess it's all a matter of
> >>>> perspective!
> >>>>
> >>>> Fraternally yours,
> >>>> Marion Gwizdala
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graves, Diane"
> >>>> <dgraves at icrc.IN.gov>
> >>>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:49 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Mary,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You know it's funny. Another thing that came to mind after I sent
my
> >>>>> post
> >>>>> was my amazement at how frustrated I've seen some sighted people
get,
> >>>>> when
> >>>>> they have to hop into the driver's seat and take a 15 minute ride
in
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> car, to go somewhere that they weren't planning to go. Maybe to
run an
> >>>>> errand to the grocery store, or go pick up a child, or take a
child's
> >>>>> friend
> >>>>> home. It just blows me away. I'm like "give me a break."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My sister-in-law is like that. She always wants me to come out
into
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> suburbs to her house, but never wants to come into the city to
pick me
> >>>>> up
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> visit me. I'm thinking, "hey lady, you're the one who drives!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But see, even if you are sighted you get locked into a routine,
and
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> frustrated by the little unexpected inconveniences that come up.
> >>>>> Inconveniences that seem almost ridiculous to a blind person who
would
> >>>>> love
> >>>>> to be able to drive independently and take care of some of those
> >>>>> things
> >>>>> without the hassle of planning.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>> Civil Rights Specialist
> >>>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
> >>>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
> >>>>> 317-232-2647
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "It is service that measures success."
> >>>>> George Washington Carver
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
> >>>>> confidential
> >>>>> and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
individual
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> entity(ies)
> >>>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended
recipient, be
> >>>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution,
or
> >>>>> acting
> >>>>> in reliance
> >>>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
have
> >>>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to sender
to
> >>>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
> >>>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [
mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >>>>> On
> >>>>> Behalf Of Mari Hunziker
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:23 AM
> >>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you Diane and Gary,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Your words of wisdom have left me to ponder about what the Lord
has in
> >>>>> store
> >>>>> for me as a mother of two wonderful children. I know that I was
given
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> opportunity for a reason. I know that being visually impaired will
> >>>>> only
> >>>>> enhance my life. Yes, Diane I wish as well that I could spend
$1000 in
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> afternoon and not think twice. Being financially secure does help
make
> >>>>> life
> >>>>> a bit more comfortable but not necessarily happier. It takes a lot
> >>>>> more
> >>>>> self
> >>>>> assurance of oneself to be happy. That is what I think my real
issue
> >>>>> is.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> want to be happy with all that I have. I am most of the time. Its
that
> >>>>> emotional roller coaster that I don't enjoy riding at times. But
for
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> most part life is good. Thank you for your words of wisdom. I
really
> >>>>> appreciate it.
> >>>>> Mari Hunziker
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Graves, Diane
<dgraves at icrc.in.gov>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Mary,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First, please know that I do understand your feelings and
> >>>>>> frustrations
> >>>>>> all
> >>>>>> too well. I have definitely been there before, and occasionally
still
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>> there. I think there was a lot of wisdom to be found in Gary's
post,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> so
> >>>>>> I'll just second it with a couple of points.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't care how well adjusted and accomplished you are as a
blind
> >>>>>> person,
> >>>>>> there are times when having sight would simply be more
convenient. It
> >>>>>> does
> >>>>>> get frustrating sometimes. But if you think about it, this is
true in
> >>>>>> many
> >>>>>> areas of our lives. I often find myself feeling envious of those
who
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>> shopping, spend $1000 in an afternoon, and not think twice about
it,
> >>>>>> while I
> >>>>>> am struggling to make sure all of the bills are paid. I am
frustrated
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> the members of congress charged with making our tax and economic
> >>>>>> decisions,
> >>>>>> are the people making more money than most of us will ever see.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am often disgusted by the women who complain and refer to
> >>>>>> themselves
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>> "fat" because they can't fit into a size 4 dress, when I would
give
> >>>>>> anything
> >>>>>> to see a size 14 again
> >>>>>> . These are just some small, maybe silly, examples, but my point
is
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> blindness is just one of the many frustrations that life has to
> >>>>>> offer.
> >>>>>> Life
> >>>>>> has dealt us all a partial deck of cards, and we just have to
learn
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> play
> >>>>>> the best game we can with the cards that we've been dealt. But,
as
> >>>>>> any
> >>>>>> skilled card player knows, the more you practice, the more
skilled
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>> become.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just know that while you are concerned about transportation
issues
> >>>>>> where
> >>>>>> school is concerned, some other mother is agonizing over how she
is
> >>>>>> going
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> get new shoes for her child, or pay for the after school
childcare.
> >>>>>> Another
> >>>>>> mother is worried about how she is going to get her wayward,
> >>>>>> rebellious
> >>>>>> teenager through high school in one piece, and on and on. This
is
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> say that your concerns aren't frustrating and understandable.
Please
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>> think that that is what I am saying at all. I'm just saying that
the
> >>>>>> blind
> >>>>>> community is not the only population that encounters these
> >>>>>> frustrations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I hope this makes a little bit of sense, at least. Gary did a
much
> >>>>>> better
> >>>>>> job than I. If you are able to attend an NFB Training Center I
think
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> would be great for you. It is always something that I wanted to
do,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> never had the opportunity. All the reports I have heard though
have
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>> amazing, and, if nothing else, it would offer you support and
build
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>> level of self confidence. I know that having a child would pose
> >>>>>> concerns
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> this area too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Feel free to vent to us any time. We are all here to help you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (big cyber hug for you)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>>> Civil Rights Specialist
> >>>>>> Indiana Civil Rights Commission
> >>>>>> Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
> >>>>>> 317-232-2647
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "It is service that measures success."
> >>>>>> George Washington Carver
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
> >>>>>> confidential
> >>>>>> and/or legally privileged information intended only for the
> >>>>>> individual
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> entity(ies)
> >>>>>> named in the E-mail address. If you are not the intended
recipient,
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution,
or
> >>>>>> acting
> >>>>>> in reliance
> >>>>>> upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
have
> >>>>>> received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to
sender to
> >>>>>> arrange for the return and proper delivery of the transmission.
> >>>>>> Subsequently, delete the message from your system immediately.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >>>>>> On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of Mari Hunziker
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:13 PM
> >>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you so much for sharing that Mike. I would love to learn
more
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> the NFB centers. I am now needing more assistance in finding
creative
> >>>>>> ways
> >>>>>> of finding transportation for my son to get to and from school
each
> >>>>>> day.
> >>>>>> Not
> >>>>>> being able to drive or to do other things is a constant struggle.
I
> >>>>>> wish
> >>>>>> there was someway to get over the emotional roller coaster I ride
> >>>>>> every
> >>>>>> day.
> >>>>>> Some days thinking its a blessing to be blind and other days it
is a
> >>>>>> curse.
> >>>>>> How have you all gotten over this?
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Mari Hunziker
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a matter of fact, one of the things done at our NFB centers
is
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>> some grilling and other chores that involve working with fire
> >>>>>>> precisely
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> get people over their fear of being burned. It's not thatanyone
> >>>>>>> wishes
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> burned but (a) blindness doesn't increase one's risks assuming
one
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> careful and (b) we want to turn that fear into what might be
termed
> >>>>>> healthy
> >>>>>>> respect for fire which still allows one to work with it. At the
end
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> day, it becomes another lesson that blindness need not prevent
us
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> leading normal lives.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
> >>>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>
> >>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:22 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Grilling question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A totally blind person can grill or smoke. i have a gas grill,
> >>>>>>> and a
> >>>>>>>> large off-set smoker and use them regularly. I have also
grilled
> >>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> charcoal -- although the gas grill is easier.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are lots of techniques to do stuff. One good source is
our
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>>> cooks list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-cooks_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dave
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> p.s. You mentioned a "fear of getting burned." Just like with
an
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> oven,
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> pot of boiling water, a gas stove etc., you can get burned if
you
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> stuff carefully and correctly, but like with the other things
> >>>>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> ways.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At 08:42 AM 8/24/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Was anyone of you grillers afraid of the fire and the
potential
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> getting
> >>>>>>>>> burned. That is what keeps me from doing it. We have a
charcoal
> >>>>>>>>> grill/smoker. My brother, father and husband have mastered the
> >>>>>>>>> great
> >>>>>>>>> taste
> >>>>>>>>> of grilled food. I have always thought that I could not grill
or
> >>>>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>>>> of that nature because I am blind(visually impaired). I now
think
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> might
> >>>>>>>>> just be a fear of getting burned. I do cook fairly well in
doors,
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>> never
> >>>>>>>>> thought about trying it outdoors. The next time we grill out.
I
> >>>>>>>>> will
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> pay more attention on how it is done so that I may someday try
> >>>>>>>>> it.
> >>>>>>>>> Who
> >>>>>>>>> knows, I may like doing it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com
> >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
> >>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> blindtlk:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
> >>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> blindtlk:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marihunziker%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
> >>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
> >>>>>> blindtlk:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dgraves%40icrc.in.gov
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
> >>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
> >>>>>> blindtlk:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marihunziker%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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