[Blindtlk] Lying on a Nail

Chris Nusbaum dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sun Jun 26 14:26:26 UTC 2011


I agree, Cindy.  But I don't think the NFB wants to offend people 
either, but sometimes we have to.  Dr.  Jernigan himself said: 
"We don't want strife or confrontation, but we will do what we 
have to do.  We simply won't accept second-class citizenship." 
That's exactly what I like about the Federation, that we're not 
so afraid of of offending people that we don't do what we have to 
do to solve the problems of discrimination against the blind.

 Chris

"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near 
you, just click on this link to their national Web site: 
www.campabilities.org.

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 Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
To: <nikki0222 at gmail.com>,	"Blind Talk Mailing List" 
<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:29:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Lying on a Nail

Nikki,

Too often, I've heard blind people say that they don't join 
groups or
organizations, because they want to be impartial and don't want 
to offend
anyone.  But, you know, before long, those people usually do join 
a group
and it's usually the ACB.

There's no way to go through life and totally avoid disagreements 
with
individuals or groups of people.  You just have to learn to stand 
up for
what you believe in and deal with the disagreement.  It doesn't 
need to be
confrontational, and it doesn't even have to be something you 
can't live
with.  But, if you try not to offend anyone, you're certain to be 
offending
someone.

Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikki Wunderlich" <nikki0222 at gmail.com
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Lying on a Nail


I've got to say that is an interesting story about the dog.  I've 
also
got to say that a lot of us "younger people" as you guys put it 
have a
hard time dealing with conflict because as children and teens we 
were
guilted and critizized by our families, and so we tend to want to 
make
every one happy.  At least that is what I've noticed amung my 
blind
friends and I.  I'm not saying that makes it ok to avoid 
conflict, I'm
just saying.  Also we tend not to want to side with people or
organizations, because in doing so we are siding with one person 
or a
group of people, and that could make the other person or group 
unhappy.

Nikki Wunderlich
MSN nikki0222 at gmail.com
Yahoo nikkiwunderlich at yahoo.com
AIM nikkiwunderlich at aim.com
facebook nikki0222 at gmail.com
myspace nikki0222 at gmail.com
twitter nikki022285
skype nikki022285


On 6/24/2011 10:59 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
 David,
    I like that story and am going to add it to my repertoire for 
use
 at the appropriate time! Thanks!

 Marion


 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Evans" 
<drevans at bellsouth.net
 To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 11:26 AM
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 developmentandFlorida Council of the blind students organization
 development



 Dear Diane and All,i

 I think that the problem with most Blind people being apathetic,
 non-commital and "don't want to do nothing" is like the old 
story
 about the traveling salesman who comes to a old house in the 
country
 where and old man is sitting in a rocking chair with his old 
hound
 dog laying on the porch moaning and wiggling in his sleep.
 The salesman asked the old man, "What's wrong with your dog?"
 The old Man replies," He is laying on a nail."
 The salesman asks, " Why doesn't he just move off the nail?" and 
the
 old man replies, " I guess it don't hurt him bad enough yet."

 The story kind of illustrates just how allot of Blind people 
are, and
 I think that we see this in the general population as well.  We 
can
 move into a comfort zone and feel that we do not need to do 
anything,
 or  stay in an uncomfortable position and suffer quietly doing
 nothing to improve our situation, or we can get up and fix the
 problem by taking action and removing that darn nail.
 I guess we all need to learn how to carry a hammer around with 
us and
 to know when and how to use it to fix what needs fixing.

 David Evans, NFBF and GD Jack.
 MV Transit Consumer Advocate

 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graves, Diane" 
<dgraves at icrc.IN.gov
 To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 8:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 development andFlorida Council of the blind students 
organization
 development


 Hi Joseph,

 I would agree with this.  I think some--not all, but most--of 
these
 individuals who don't think that the problems are real have 
family
 members who are either willing to jump in and
 read/transport/whatever, or they have friends in high places who 
can
 get them past the discrimination.  Or...  they have the money 
they
 need to bypass the system.

 Unfortunately, like it or not, as proven by some of the antics 
in
 Hollywood over the last several years, people who have the 
money,
 can pretty much do whatever they want too.  But yes, I would 
agree,
 most of the blind who think everything is okay probably aren't 
as
 independent as they could and should be.

 Diane Graves
 Civil Rights Specialist
 Indiana Civil Rights Commission
 Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
 317-232-2647

 "It is service that measures success."
 George Washington Carver

 Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
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 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
 [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T.  Joseph 
Carter
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:32 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 development and Florida Council of the blind students 
organization
 development

 Diane,

 I’ll opine that if they have been so sheltered, they HAVE in 
fact
 experienced the discrimination and belittlement.  They are just
 blissfully unaware of this fact.  For this, and not for their
 disability, I pity them.

 Joseph


 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 08:34:01AM -0400, Graves, Diane wrote:
 Joseph,

 What you say is very true.  There are also those blind 
individuals
 who are reluctant to get involved, because they haven't 
experienced
 any conflicts.  They are blessed to have breezed through life, 
have
 had great teachers and educational systems, being well received 
by
 others, the things that they care about have been accessible to
 them, they have experienced no belittlement or discrimination, 
and
 on and on.  They just don't think there is really a problem, 
because
 they, themselves, haven't dealt with it.  Do you know what I 
mean?



 Diane Graves
 Civil Rights Specialist
 Indiana Civil Rights Commission
 Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
 317-232-2647

 "It is service that measures success."
 George Washington Carver

 Confidentiality Notice: This E-mail transmission may contain
 confidential and/or legally privileged information intended only
 for the individual or entity(ies)
 named in the E-mail address.  If you are not the intended 
recipient,
 be advised that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, 
distribution,
 or acting in reliance
 upon the contents of this E-mail is strictly prohibited.  If you
 have received this E-mail transmission in error, please reply to
 sender to arrange for the return and proper delivery of the
 transmission.  Subsequently, delete the message from your system
 immediately.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
 [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T.  Joseph 
Carter
 Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:29 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 developmentand Florida Council of the blind students 
organization
 development

 I see it as our job to be better than that.  If they are 
likewise,
 good for them.  If they are not, it’s too bad.  We know that 
what we
 are doing is right, and we know we are doing the right thing for 
the
 right reasons.

 I too have seen people say that they believe both organizations 
need
 to "grow up".  That is probably because, at times, some of us 
have
 appeared to react childishly.  Not all of us, and not all the 
time,
 and there may be explanations and justifications for whatever
 behavior is thus perceived, but the point stands.  And it is
 something we should be careful to avoid.  We "win" (if there is 
such
 a thing as "winning") only by choosing not to play the tit for 
tat
 game with the ACB.

 How can this be?

 There are only four possible outcomes.

 If neither of us are viewed as "acting like adults", the status 
quo
 is maintained.  Not to our advantage.

 If we are viewed as "acting like adults" and the ACB is not, we
 benefit.  This is to our advantage.

 If the ACB is viewed as "acting like adults" and we are not, 
they
 benefit.  Not to our advantage.

 If both we and the ACB are viewed as "acting like adults", more
 interest is likely to be shown in both organization.  This is to 
our
 advantage.

 The third variable to consider is the person whose perceptions 
are
 being considered.  Some people are simply conflict-adverse.  
They do
 not care WHAT the lack of harmony is, be it a spirited debate or 
an
 absolute flamefest.  They are likely to reject both 
organizations
 regardless of our behavior because they cannot cope.  That’s 
not
 something we as an organization can do much about.

 Unfortunately, this inability to tolerate disharmony seems to 
affect
 the younger generations disproportionately.  "Drama", as they 
put it,
 seems to be fine to watch on TV, but should not be experienced 
in
 real life.  Perhaps this has something to do with why it is so 
hard
 to get the younger generations involved in either organization?

 I’ll not opine as to the reasons for this aversion because it 
tends
 to get into political ideology, and the last time we had such a
 discussion on NFB lists, accusations of Nazism and the like were
 bandied about.

 Joseph


 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 04:16:45PM -0400, cheryl echevarria 
wrote:
 I find many not wanting to belong to either, only because they
 feel both groups need to grow up and get along, or don’t help 
at
 all.  NOW, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!

 Mind you I have had these issues trying to start a local chapter
 here in Suffolk County.  So there are people that would just not
 want to be part of either.

 I have been on the ACB website before, I myself don’t like the
 fact they still have 6-7 pages of bashing the NFB from the
 original break up of the NFB way back when.  Many of us were not
 even born or children when this came about.

 And you know what they say about people being prejudice, you are
 not born that way it is learned.




 Leading the Way in Independent Travel!

 Cheryl Echevarria
 http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/
 631-456-5394
 
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriat
ravel.com


 Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
 CST-1018299-10

 Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise &
 Travel, Inc.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: T.  Joseph Carter<mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com
  To: Blind Talk Mailing List<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org
  Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 developmentand Florida Council of the blind students 
organization
 development


  I figure they can be ACB members not thinking of jumping ship
 too, as
  long as they’re not trying to cause a constant ruckus.  I 
personally
  don’t even mind a debate now and then about their views 
versus ours.
  If our position cannot stand up to honest debate, then we ought 
to
  change it.  Of course, the same holds true of theirs.

  Unfortunately, too often debates of this nature degrade to 
false
  dichotomies, straw men, and your basic ad homiem.  If that 
could be
  avoided, we might actually get somewhere with trying to unite 
the
  blindness community on at least those issues where there is 
common
  ground (which is more of them than you’d think, actually!)

  I didn’t have much luck with that effort.  Too many hotheads 
on both
  sides.  Of course I’ve got my own opinions about the 
distribution of
  hotheads is to each side, and to what extent they are tolerated 
or
  even welcomed by one versus the other.

  Suffice it to say that I don’t predict much unity in our 
future.
 And
  that’s a real shame.

  Joseph


  On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 06:47:52AM -0400, cheryl echevarria 
wrote:
Problem  with this, we want all blind and people to join, they
 can be ACB members why not especially if they are thinking of
 jumping ship.  There are guidelines for the groups, and David
 Andrews can remove people.


Leading the Way in Independent Travel!

Cheryl Echevarria


http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<
http://www.echevarriatravel.com/

631-456-5394


reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriat
ravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com


Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
 CST-1018299-10

Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise &
 Travel, Inc.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Humberto
 
Avila<mailto:avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com<mailto:avila.bert.hum
berto2 at gmail.com
  To: 'Blind Talk Mailing
 List'<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org
  Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 developmentand Florida Council of the blind students 
organization
 development


  Actually David, can we start putting  stricter guidelines for
 joining
  mailing lists from the NFB instead of just sending an email
 message to the
  mailman or filling out the form? Is there a way that there is
 some sort of
  approval process and application, for example, that you can
 create, for
  joining an NFB list? I say this because of greater security
 reasons.  We
  would be less vulnerable to spam and ad messages if we do so 
also.
  Just my thoughts, Humberto

  -----Original Message-----
  From:
 
blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org<ma
ilto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet
.org
 [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  Behalf Of David Andrews
  Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:27 PM
  To: Blind Talk Mailing List;
 
acb-lions at acb.org<mailto:acb-lions at acb.org<mailto:acb-lions at acb.o
rg%3Cmailto:acb-lions at acb.org>>;
 
announce at acb.org<mailto:announce at acb.org<mailto:announce at acb.org%
3Cmailto:announce at acb.org>>;


 
acb-hsp at acb.org<mailto:acb-hsp at acb.org<mailto:acb-hsp at acb.org%3Cm
ailto:acb-hsp at acb.org>>;
 
nabs at acb.org<mailto:nabs at acb.org<mailto:nabs at acb.org%3Cmailto:nab
s at acb.org>>;
 
acb-l at acb.org<mailto:acb-l at acb.org<mailto:acb-l at acb.org%3Cmailto:
acb-l at acb.org>>;
 
acb-chat at acb.org<mailto:acb-chat at acb.org<mailto:acb-chat at acb.org%
3Cmailto:acb-chat at acb.org>>;


 
fcb-l at acb.org<mailto:fcb-l at acb.org<mailto:fcb-l at acb.org%3Cmailto:
fcb-l at acb.org>>;
 
leadership at acb.org<mailto:leadership at acb.org<mailto:leadership at ac
b.org%3Cmailto:leadership at acb.org>>;
 
nabs-l at nfbnet.org<mailto:nabs-l at nfbnet.org<mailto:nabs-l at nfbnet.o
rg%3Cmailto:nabs-l at nfbnet.org>>;
 
fabs at nfbnet.org<mailto:fabs at nfbnet.org<mailto:fabs at nfbnet.org%3Cm
ailto:fabs at nfbnet.org>>;


 
nfbf-l at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfbf-l at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfbf-l at nfbnet.o
rg%3Cmailto:nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>>;
 
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nf
bnet.org%3Cmailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>;
 
blindtlk at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindtlk at nf
bnet.org%3Cmailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org

  Cc:
 
k7uij at panix.com<mailto:k7uij at panix.com<mailto:k7uij at panix.com%3Cm
ailto:k7uij at panix.com>>;
 
steve.jacobson at visi.com<mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com<mailto:ste
ve.jacobson at visi.com%3Cmailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com

  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Florida Council of the Blind Chapter
 development and
  Florida Council of the blind students organization development

  Are you nuts -- writing to a bunch of NFb lists to start an ACB
  Chapter.  I have previously warned you about inappropriate
 messages,
  consequently you will be removed and banned from joining our
 lists.

  I don't care about your starting an ACB Chapter, I would rather
 see
  someone involved with them instead of nothing, but we can not 
and
  will not be the vehicle of your advertising.

  David Andrews, List Owner

  At 10:12 PM 6/21/2011, Mr.  Alexander Scott Kaiser wrote:
Tuesday, June 21, 2011
Hello all fcb and NFB members,
  hello all blind broward county Florida citizens who  are 
members
 of the National Federation of the Blind and American Council
 of the
 Blind.  I would like to start a chapter  of  the Florida
 Council of
 the blind called the Greater Broward county-  greater Tamarac
 Florida Council of the Blind.  I would also  like to start a
 National alliance of blind students devision for Florida
 Council of
 the Blind called the Greater tamarac- Greater broward county
 Florida blind students Coalolission incorporated.  I am looking 
at
 establishing the chapter  and blind students division  in
 August of
 2011.  I would like to get a list of people together to propose
 the
 devision and the new chapter of FCB to Paul Edwards.  I can be
 contacted off list at
 
AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com<mailto:AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.
com<mailto:AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com%3Cmailto:AScottKaiser10
301990 at inbox.com>>.
 I can also be
 called at 1 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6.  I can be called on skype at
 Alexander.the.great1990.  Please respond as immediately as
 possible.
Sincerely,
Mr.  Alexander Scott Kaiser

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