[Blindtlk] Aaaspple
Martha
minime0918 at verizon.net
Mon Sep 5 17:20:05 UTC 2011
Raider Nation
On Sep 5, 2011, at 1:00 PM, blindtlk-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Resolution that didn't pass about apple (T. Joseph Carter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 09:37:58 -0700
> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
> Message-ID: <20110905163758.GF98993 at yumi.bluecherry.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> The thing is, the two resolutions were both pretty bad, as written,
> and passing even just one of them has had a negative effect on the
> NFB's relationship with Apple, but parts of the two resolutions were
> significant and should've been passed.
>
> Parts of the resolution that failed were needed, and parts of the
> resolution that passed shouldn't have been there.
>
> A resolution that would have helped enhance relations with Apple and
> encouraged them to improve accessibility greatly could have been
> taken almost entirely from the two disastrous resolutions that were
> brought forward.
>
> Apple CAN know in advance if an application is going to be accessible
> or not, so they CAN put a notice up about accessibility features
> right on their website. And they ought to do it, too. Do you have
> any idea how many Twitter apps I downloaded for the iPhone trying to
> find which of them were accessible using VoiceOver and supported
> larger fonts? I probably spent $25 on the endeavor, which seems very
> small until you realize that most of the apps were either free or 99
> cents!
>
> I wouldn't have needed to do that if anyone could look at the list of
> apps and see which supported VoiceOver, which had custom fonts, font
> sizes, and colors. But as it stands right now, we learn that apps
> are accessible by downloading them and finding out for ourselves.
> This isn't how it should be.
>
> Likewise, Apple could easily add a category to its design awards for
> most innovative accessibility feature. You can't tell me that every
> year there isn't some application that either uses accessibility
> features in a cool way, or that gives us access to something in a new
> way, or maybe to something that was previously inaccessible. All
> they have to do is give out ONE such award, and it will spark
> developers' imaginations for what they could do with it.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 10:28:25AM -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Steve, your input is, as always, well taken. I don't quairel with what the resolutions objectives were; rather, I do quarel as to the wording. I do feel that if this situation deteriorates, an open letter to Dr. Maurer might still be necessary. I grant you that the national office might not necessarily have had anything to do with the authoring of the Apple resolutions; still, It might still be a good idea to do an open letter just to really air this thing out and see where we stand and how we can best move forward from here.
>>
>> For now, then, I suspect that the discussion will stay on this list until I can get the enrgy enough to do up a rough draft of something. I will then send it via Drop box to the list and see what the feeling comes to be before sending it on. Good idea maybe or what y'all think?
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>
>> Skype name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> Facebook:
>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> While anyone has a right to send an open letter to Dr. Maurer, I'm really not certain that people have correctly
>>> assessed the origin of these resolutions. I know that you know this, but many here may not know that our resolutions
>>> committee is large and resolutions are heard before that committee at the beginning of the convention with many,
>>> many members attending because it is an open meeting. When a resolution is said to be recommended to pass, it
>>> means that the committee voted to recommend passage and that does not necessarily mean that our national office
>>> was involved one way or another. There were a lot of us, though, myself included, who did not think these were
>>> unreasonable, even if I might have worded somethings differently. Resolutions can never make everyone completely
>>> happy. I now have access to a MACBook now and am working to learn more how they work and what the
>>> differences are. I can see that I might own an I Phone at some point, too, because Apple has done a good job of
>>> incorporating VoiceOver into their products in such a way as to make them stable. I further believe that some of what
>>> apple did with touch screens required taking a new look at a problem rather than trying to use existing experiences
>>> and many of us would not have had the imagination to come up with new solutions. Still, what is so terribly wrong in
>>> asking Apple to explain some of
>>> the concerns we raised? Language such as "bite the hand that feeds us" really scares me because we don't know if
>>> any of Apple's products would have been accessible if it were not for laws that we worked hard to pass. They might
>>> have, and as I have said before, they did go beyond what they would have had to do and they deserve credit for that,
>>> but they are also now a large company that greatly impacts our education, and I suspect will likely start involving our
>>> employment more and more as MACs become part of the business world. Some businesses are already using I Pads
>>> to deliver reports. Maybe we have to figure out what works with Apple and what doesn't in terms of how we try to
>>> influence them, but I just don't think it is wrong for us to expect that they at least provide some explanation of those
>>> things that concern us and not just the sort of stamping of feet and getting angry that Joseph describes. And of
>>> course, we also must be aware that what Joeseph is reporting doesn't necessarily represent an official response from
>>> Apple, either, so we need to be careful not to judge them on reactions shared with him.
>>>
>>> What would you want to say in a sort of open letter? Perhaps this is something that some of us in the NFB in
>>> Computer Science should also look at, what do you think?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:41:07 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve, well said,
>>>
>>>> Alright. Here's my thinking now. I've said on this list that I'm planning an open letter to Dr. Maurer expressing my
>>> concerns over this issue. Given the nature of the discussion thus far, I should think that perhaps the prudent thing
>>> would be to address myself not only to Dr. Maurer, but perhaps to Apple CEO Tim Cook as well. Also, given the
>>> nature of the discussion on this list regarding this topic, I would like now to propose that the open letter should not be
>>> authored by myself alone; rather, that it should be a group effort put forth partly by myself but other Apple users on this
>>> list and, of course, Joseph and Steve, your input also.
>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>
>>>> Skype name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>>> Facebook:
>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 4, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Joseph and others,
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the things that has really made me feel uneasy with respect to any discussions regarding Apple is how
>>> people
>>>>> feel that Apple can do nothing wrong. As much as people can criticize how we might look at Google versus Apple,
>>>>> people need also to look at how we look at Apple versus other companies. In addition, Apple plays what appears
>>> to
>>>>> me to be a somewhat unique role in their arena and it means that they have both more power and more
>>> responsibility
>>>>> than do other companies in terms of accessibility. I have to say that I have never been a "Condemn and deplore"
>>>>> guy, believing that approach is more for show than for really getting anything done, but I also feel that some of the
>>>>> opposition to these resolutions are based partly on a lack of understanding of a number of technical issues and
>>>>> political realities. Also, I
>>>>> think there is a sort of collision between our culture and Apple's that we're going to all have to work through
>>> because
>>>>> we need to get along with Apple and I think they need to get along with us as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, Joseph, your Adobe Photo Shop analogy is really a poor one. There is no reason that I can see why their
>>> menu
>>>>> structure and help system shouldn't be accessible. That doesn't mean they have to translate pictures for me as
>>> you
>>>>> imply. Because I was able to use the menus on PCPaint many years ago, I was able to help my sighted kids to
>>> learn
>>>>> the basics. Is that really so ridiculous? Would I feel we should go to the mat to get such accessibility? Probably
>>> not,
>>>>> but the concept isn't as unrealistic as you make it out to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us had some concerns about how VoiceOver worked early on and had the opportunity to express those
>>>>> concerns to Apple. VoiceOver is more dependent upon developers following rules than has been the case with
>>>>> screen readers under Microsoft. One of our concerns was whether there would be problems getting software
>>>>> developers for the MAC to do what was necessary. One of the things that was emphasized to us by Apple
>>> personel
>>>>> was that Apple
>>>>> exercises a good bit of control over applications that are sold for the MAC. In addition, there were a limited number
>>> of
>>>>> development platforms so we didn't need to worry our little heads about whether applications would be accessible.
>>>>> This has seemed to be largely true, but it means that I tend to worry more when there appears to be slippage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another thing that needs to be considered is that Microsoft, Adobe, GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Google, Dell,
>>> Asus,
>>>>> Acer, Hewlet-Packard and other companies all are pieces of the larger accessibility picture in the Windows world. I
>>>>> would like to see Microsoft take more control over applications written for Windows, but they don't have the same
>>> sort
>>>>> of control that apple has, partly by their choice, but partly because of how computers that run Windows have
>>> evolved.
>>>>> We don't always know why something is not accessible, where the finger should be pointed. It makes it harder to
>>>>> know whom should be condemned and deplored. <smile> That's not to say there shouldn't be more condemning
>>> and
>>>>> deploring if one likes that sort of thing. Apple, on the other hand, provides the hardware, the operating system, the
>>>>> screen reader, and much of the software. They exercise a good deal of control over the development of other
>>>>> software as well. Apple is therefore in a position to enforce accessibility in a way that nobody else can at this point.
>>>>> Because of the
>>>>> relatively closed nature of development for the Apple, if they don't enforce it, we'll be out of luck. The word
>>> "closed"
>>>>> is used here not as a negative, but rather to describe how development works in that environment and that there
>>> isn't
>>>>> the same ability to get information that might make an inaccessible application accessible that currently exists under
>>>>> Windows. Having said that, the Windows world is moving in a direction that is similar to where Apple already is, so
>>>>> how Apple handles all of this could well set the tone for what happens with Windows in the years to come. We
>>> have
>>>>> seen cases where companies do what they need to to make things accessible enough to meet regulations and
>>> then
>>>>> the priority goes down. We can't afford to let that happen with Apple. I think that if we were to see Adobe give an
>>>>> award to an electronic text that could have been accessible but wasn't, that we'd be every bit as unhappy. We
>>> were
>>>>> pretty unhappy with Google's original inaccessible books and we let them know it, but you will probably recall that
>>>>> there were some other issues involved there besides Google's efforts, and there had been some effort made by
>>>>> Google to work with us. While Adobe and Google have certainly not been perfect, they have tended to reach out
>>> to
>>>>> us. We had a representative from Adobe at our NFBCS meeting this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph, you mentioned that Apple's accessibility team was upset with both of our resolutions.
>>>>> If that is the case, I find it particularly upsetting. If even the thought of criticizing Apple gets them upset, even if it is
>>>>> voted down, that seems extremely controlling to me. Apple has gone beyond the call of duty to do what they have
>>> to
>>>>> make things accessible and we need to give them credit. However, we also should not forget that they could not
>>>>> have gotten into some of the markets that are important to them without making their products accessible. Schools
>>>>> are now buying I Pads left and right, and that couldn't have happened without making them accessible because of
>>>>> legal requirements. They responded to this challenge in a positive and even imaginative way, but it cost them
>>> money
>>>>> and took some time. If not for blind consumer groups such as the NFB, they would not have had to spend that
>>> time
>>>>> and money, so they probably didn't feel inclined to look favorably upon us from the start. They are much less likely
>>> to
>>>>> talk about where they are headed in certain areas than is Microsoft, for example. Therefore, we don't always know
>>>>> what shortcomings they plan to address already or what we should be trying to call to their attention. It means that
>>> we
>>>>> can't be as constructive as we might be if we had more information. That's what I meant by a clash in cultures,
>>> they
>>>>> don't tend to share plans with or seek input from anyone. <smile>
>>>>>
>>>>> So let's figure out how best to move ahead. I just don't see where either resolution was out of line given the
>>> uniquely
>>>>> strong role Apple plays in software development and given its control over hardware, software, operating system,
>>> and
>>>>> screen reader. I also think that the strong opposition to the resolutions indicates that we have to take into account
>>>>> the feelings of our membership on this in the future. There is still a sort of honeymoon with apple for many and as
>>> an
>>>>> organization we need to reflect the will of our membership. People need to understand, though, that there is a lot
>>> that
>>>>> is unique in this situation and that we're far more dependent upon Apple to make their products accessible than we
>>>>> are upon Microsoft, even though Microsoft certainly has power as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 05:46:28 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Talk to me when Adobe makes Photoshop for the blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>> OH WAIT, that doesn't make sense. It's a complex editing program for
>>>>>> photographs and other graphics. In order for it to be possible, you
>>>>>> would have to somehow be able to invent some magical technology that
>>>>>> allows blind people to see every shadow, every leaf, every color in
>>>>>> all of the 16.7 million possible combinations to pixel-level
>>>>>> accuracy.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The resolution demanded that Apple refuse to approve ANY APPLICATION
>>>>>> that was not completely accessible. This includes photo editors like
>>>>>> Photoshop, every video game, etc., and went so far as to condemn and
>>>>>> deplore the fact that they have not done so already!
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that the only applications that can be allowed to exist
>>>>>> are those useful to the blind, then you seriously need to begin
>>>>>> living on Planet Earth. A blind person cannot use Photoshop. They
>>>>>> can do graphics (I have done graphics, under sleepshade, so it can be
>>>>>> done!), but the way a blind person does them is necessarily not going
>>>>>> to be the way a sighted person does it. Visual vs. non-visual
>>>>>> techniques, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with CSS on a website without
>>>>>> vision, and for more complex graphics there's SVG. SVG is kind of
>>>>>> complicated to do because it's a pretty complex XML format for which
>>>>>> presently no easy editor exists that we can use. But several
>>>>>> websites now use the very sharp Whozit graphic I made using for
>>>>>> Oregon using the SVG vector format. It can be done. But not with
>>>>>> Photoshop.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 02:57:43PM -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a shame that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. While it's true
>>>>>>> Apple has done much to make their products usable by the blind we can't let
>>>>>>> the "Let's be grateful for what they've done" attitude prevent us from
>>>>>>> pushing them to the next level. I'd like to see that resolution brought back
>>>>>>> next year and broadened to include other software vendors such as Microsoft.
>>>>>>> If we don't force software creators to build in accessibility to their
>>>>>>> products by requiring such accessibility as an award criteria for
>>>>>>> outstanding development of their products. If we don't and software produced
>>>>>>> by Apple and others becomes inaccessible to the blind we will have only
>>>>>>> ourselves to blame by not insisting that those who reward software creators
>>>>>>> for outstanding development and product usage are not required to include
>>>>>>> accessibility features for the blind and disabled. Again it's a crying shame
>>>>>>> that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. We could pay the price for this
>>>>>>> failure in the future. I certainly hope not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 11:58 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well maybe people on this list that voted against it elaborate as to why
>>>>>>> they voted against it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>> 631-456-5394
>>>>>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Superior Travel, located in
>>>>>>> Baldwin, NY. www.superiortravel.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:56 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [Bulk] Re: a great article
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah yes, I have a recording of the stream of that particular days' events.
>>>>>>>> I must say, that was quite an episode.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skype name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Facebook:
>>>>>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An example of not all of us following like zombies, at the national
>>>>>>>>> convention. A resolution about apple. Don't quite remember the wordage,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it did not pass. More than half of the floor voted against it. If you
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> at the convention you would know what I am talking about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was one of the many who voted against the resolution. I didn't think
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> was fair, and not something the NFB needed to make an resolution for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Others are welcome to chime in here...
>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:19 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> no point in rehashing the lost funds as they have been forgiven in the
>>>>>>>>> midwest.
>>>>>>>>> i was the only one to push the issue and was blasted for it. it's things
>>>>>>>>> like that which make the nfb taste bitter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to see more examples of that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:14 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very tiring, very frustrating and gets us no where. So
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>>> NFB members never ask the tough questions, and look the other way. What
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> the illegal behavior your speaking of? I am pretty sure if there was
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> illegal behavior, we just as much any other person would ask the
>>>>>>>>>> "tough"
>>>>>>>>>> questions. Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If your so anti-NFB, why do you hang out here. Your welcome to leave
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> time. We would rather you go away. So our list can go back to being
>>>>>>>>>> constructive and productive. Oh wait that is right, we are all lyres,
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> allow illegal behavior, and follow like zombies. You can think what you
>>>>>>>>>> want. But this skirting around subjects does nothing. We are not going
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> change our minds about what we think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:07 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not accusing anyone, the event already happened.
>>>>>>>>>> the point is don't ask tough questions unless you have thick skin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:49 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I see, my mistake.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You aren't taking pot shots at the ACB without facts to back it up.
>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>> are taking pot shots at the NFB without facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It takes a lot of guts to come into an organization and start accusing
>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> members of vaguely illegal activities without offering any specifics
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence. But I'm sure doing so will get you all the consideration
>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> due.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And with that, I think I'm about finished with the discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not talking about the acb but the point still applies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:09 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest if that helps you maximize your involvement with and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from an organization, you find another organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps though, we don't want to go down this road, or at least not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this fashion. The ACB has in the past allowed its members to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>> baseless, unsupported, and uncontested claims of illegal behavior by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. It was rather off-putting, and I'd have thought so even if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not a Federationist! Indeed, it seems always to be so, in any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization, whether or not I have any affiliation with anybody.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there's something new and recent that needs to be discussed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB, we should probably do it, but in a new thread with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>>>>>>> details. If it's a rehash of old wrongdoings by former officers, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know how useful it would be to debate today. It's like discussing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable action taken by Janet Reno while she worked for Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clinton. Anyone personally affected would find it relevant, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole wouldn't be interested today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes the bad guys get away with it. Usually when the good guys
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't stand up to them until its too late. But that takes me off on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own tangent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 03:53:02PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be at least one more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #16. Don't ask tough questions even when a member does something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable and probably illegal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NABS list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Blind Talk list"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; "Gary Legates" <gary.legates at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:02 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I try to learn more about both organizations, I have subscribed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the Braille Monitor and the Braille Forum. The Monitor, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know, is the Federation (NFB's) publication and the Forum is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Council (or ACB's) publication. I found a great article in July's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forum entitled "Fifteen Ways to Maximize your ACB Membership,"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fifteen tips on how to take advantage of all ACB (or any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that matter) has to offer. I think this could also apply to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Federation and to NABS or any other special-interest division, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some good advice. To be accurate, I added "or NFB" in parentheses
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some parts of the article. I have pasted the article below. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this? I promise I'm not trying to force the ACB down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throats; in fact, I'm a Federationist in nature, but want to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about both. Here is the article.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 WAYS TO MAXIMIZE YOUR ACB (or NFB) MEMBERSHIP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kenneth Semien Sr.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All too often, people join organizations without taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage of the opportunity to truly know intricate details of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mission, and operating practices. This can very well result in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> participation and could ultimately result in a decision to forfeit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could have been the ideal vehicle to enhance your life, build
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationships and effectively share personal skills and abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make an enormous difference. In an effort to encourage you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaningful efforts of ACB, I have included the tips listed below
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you in being all you can be and help you join with others whose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complement yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Be inquisitive and don't hesitate to ask questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Become familiar with the history, mission, and purpose by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reviewing it often enough to be able to repeat it to others. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone may realize that this is the organization they have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Make a personal commitment to identify ways to get involved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Find out who the officers are and become acquainted with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them and their roles and responsibilities, as well as members you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively participating in events and projects associated with our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. Make your skills and abilities known to leaders of your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter, affiliate, or the president of our organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Make every effort to participate in chapter, state affiliate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and national meetings, seminars, conferences and conventions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Inquire about available committees you may be able to serve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on to assist the organization in achieving its goals and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objectives.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to join committees that allow you to utilize your skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most effective and efficient manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. If you have access to the Internet, sign up for up-to-date
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news and announcements from all levels of our organization. Ask a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> president
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or member to tell you how to take advantage of this option.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9. Listen to or read publications/newsletters distributed by our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization on all levels. This is one of the best ways to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful resources, access inspirational stories, scholarships,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upcoming projects and events.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10. Identify special-interest groups that meet your personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs. These groups provide you the opportunity to network with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharing common interests, such as your prior or current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occupation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hobbies,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> health concerns and so much more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11. Obtain your own copy of the constitution and bylaws to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the agreed-upon operating practices and procedures of our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12. Prepare for future involvement as an officer by becoming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with officer titles and duties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13. Participate in conference calls to build your knowledge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as membership focus calls, periodic Office Hours conference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB president, committee calls, and special-interest group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14. Explore the web sites of your chapter, state affiliate and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our national organization. You may locate information on the web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> site
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you didn't think of inquiring about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15. Pay your annual dues faithfully and encourage others to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more you know and the more you become involved, the more you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will begin to know that you have joined a phenomenal organization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing to grow. Have a great ACB (or NFB) adventure!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (President
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit the I C.A.N. Foundation online at: www.icanfoundation.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information on our foundation and how it helps blind and visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired children in MD say "I can!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my BrailleNote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40s
>>>>>>>>> b
>>>>>>>>>> cglobal.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjosep
>>>>>>>>> h
>>>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>> lobal.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> al.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>>> al.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gm
>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>> database 6429 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>> database 6431 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>> database 6431 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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>
> End of blindtlk Digest, Vol 63, Issue 10
> ****************************************
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