[Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Wed Sep 7 14:27:41 UTC 2011
Ray,
It's been so long since I've heard those resolutions now, I could very well be wrong. If it is mostly the "Condemn and Deplore" language, I can understand
that. Not everyone grew up in the 60's and 70's when "condemn and deplore" was everyday language in all resolutions, not just in the blindness field.
Since I did, "Condemn and Deplore" still kind of goes in one ear and out the other. Times change.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 16:12:40 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>Actually Steve, the first resolution did in fact contain the condemn and deplore language.
>What I think many who participated in the debate over both resolutions found highly offensive was the C&D language. Now, let me see if I can offer a
solution which would work. Take the language in the Google resolution we passed this year, apply it to the Apple situation and I think, by damn, we just
may have the beginnings of a truly workable way forward. Commend Apple for what they have done so far, acknowledge frankly that there are still issues
and resolve to both praise Apple's efforts thus far and at the same time closely monitor, (within the limits of what is possible), furthering the good beginning
made.
>Thoughts?
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>Skype name:
>barefootedray
>Facebook:
>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>On Sep 6, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> Joseph,
>>
>> As I recall, the resolution that passed primarily asked Apple to put in place some minimum accessibility standards. I don't believe it even contained the
>> "Condemn and Deplore" language. Since I am not an Apple employee, I cannot say for certain how Apple does these kinds of things, but it is most likely
>> not the accessibility team who determines what standards Apple follows or implements. The fact that there is a good bit of hit or miss when buying apps
is
>> certainly not the accessibility team's fault, but if Apple is reviewing all of these apps it could likely at least note if an app is not accessible which I believe
you
>> also said. Knowing what I know about apple, they might be working on this already, but they are extremely secretive, and I am not inclined to assume
that
>> any company is automatically working in my interest without having them explain what they are doing. In another note you went to great lengths
expressing
>> your frustration with the control Apple exercises over its software. Whether I agree with the control they exercise or not, why is it unreasonable to ask
that
>> they use some of their control to include accessibility? This tight control is precisely why they have more power to implement accessibility than does
>> probably any other company. Because of their control, we will have a difficult time getting accessibility in any alternative way if an important piece of
>> software is not accessible.
>>
>> You also keep using the Photo Shop analogy as showing how ridiculous it is to think that every application be made accessible. I know of nowhere
where
>> it has been said that every application has to be accessible to every one of us. There are different ways of implementing standards. However, you also
>> seem to be forgetting that accessibility can also mean controlling font sizes and being compatible with magnifying software. This could make some
software
>> accessible to some of us even if such software may not be something that a totally blind person would use. I don't have any idea how Photo Shop
stacks
>> up on any of this, but the way you are using that example seems off base for this discussion.
>>
>> As I recall, the second resolution that was defeated condemned and deplored apple for giving an award to an electronic text that was not accessible.
You
>> are playing with facts to make this sound as though it is an insult to the accessibility team there. It is almost a certainty that they had nothing to do with
this
>> and probably were somewhat frustrated themselves, but of course they would not be able to say anything as employees. It is not uncommon for
companies
>> to overlook the efforts of their accessibility teams and the only way to reverse this sort of thing is if someone outside takes notice. Given the many efforts
we
>> are making to be sure that we can use electronic texts, it is hard for me to accept that people really think that since Apple does such a great job with
>> accessibility we shouldn't express any frustration over them ignoring accessibility when giving an award to an electronic text. I have no doubt that we
would
>> do the same if it had been any other major company. What don't I understand here?
>>
>> Nobody likes criticism and I certainly do not expect that Apple should love us for making the points we made. But given what you have said about the
tight
>> control Apple exercises over apps and some of what you have said in your original note below, it is hard for me to understand why people should think
that
>> what is being asked is unreasonable in both resolutions. It further seems to me that to try to personalize these resolutions by portraying them as a sort of
>> attack on the accessibility team there isnot accurate at all. The point of both resolutions is not a criticism of the efforts of the accessibility team, but
rather,
>> the role that accessibility plays in Apple's policies. This is significantly different from the way you are portraying all of this. Like any company, Apple is
now
>> large with different segments, and these segments do not always talk to each other. I don't see how we can afford to let the good work done by the
>> accessibility team cause us to ignore that which we might not like done by other areas of the company. There are times when we don't do or say
anything
>> because we know it won't matter or will be irrelevant. To me, these resolutions were brought forward because Apple is very relevant and from what we
>> know of the company, what the resolution authors saw as shortcomings have some chance of being addressed. If you recall, we were pretty hard on
>> Google when it looked as though they were not going to make their books accessible, but from what I remember, Google took the time to explain what
the
>> problem was, the pressure they were getting from publishers and the like. Google isn't perfect but at least some of the problems arise because of the
many
>> players involved. One doesn't have to receive a donation to see some of that. We have had gripes with Adobe and we still do, but they have
consistently
>> kept communication open as has Microsoft and a number of other companies. There is always a danger in letting communication be substituted for
results,
>> but there is generally some understanding by our organization of the problems encountered because of this communication. We can make more
>> knowledgeable judgements because of the communication that exists with other companies.
>>
>> If there is to be an open letter, there has to be some specific thought given to what it is about these resolutions that people found so insulting to Apple
and
>> then help the rest of us understand what that is. We have a chance, with Apple's help, or maybe it is that Apple has a chance with our help, to do some
>> pretty amazing things where accessibility is concerned. As I have said before, some of what happens with Apple will have an impact on what eventually
>> happens in Windows so it is very important to all of us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 09:37:58 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>
>>> The thing is, the two resolutions were both pretty bad, as written,
>>> and passing even just one of them has had a negative effect on the
>>> NFB's relationship with Apple, but parts of the two resolutions were
>>> significant and should've been passed.
>>
>>> Parts of the resolution that failed were needed, and parts of the
>>> resolution that passed shouldn't have been there.
>>
>>> A resolution that would have helped enhance relations with Apple and
>>> encouraged them to improve accessibility greatly could have been
>>> taken almost entirely from the two disastrous resolutions that were
>>> brought forward.
>>
>>> Apple CAN know in advance if an application is going to be accessible
>>> or not, so they CAN put a notice up about accessibility features
>>> right on their website. And they ought to do it, too. Do you have
>>> any idea how many Twitter apps I downloaded for the iPhone trying to
>>> find which of them were accessible using VoiceOver and supported
>>> larger fonts? I probably spent $25 on the endeavor, which seems very
>>> small until you realize that most of the apps were either free or 99
>>> cents!
>>
>>> I wouldn't have needed to do that if anyone could look at the list of
>>> apps and see which supported VoiceOver, which had custom fonts, font
>>> sizes, and colors. But as it stands right now, we learn that apps
>>> are accessible by downloading them and finding out for ourselves.
>>> This isn't how it should be.
>>
>>> Likewise, Apple could easily add a category to its design awards for
>>> most innovative accessibility feature. You can't tell me that every
>>> year there isn't some application that either uses accessibility
>>> features in a cool way, or that gives us access to something in a new
>>> way, or maybe to something that was previously inaccessible. All
>>> they have to do is give out ONE such award, and it will spark
>>> developers' imaginations for what they could do with it.
>>
>>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 10:28:25AM -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>> Steve, your input is, as always, well taken. I don't quairel with what the resolutions objectives were; rather, I do quarel as to the wording. I do feel that
if
>> this situation deteriorates, an open letter to Dr. Maurer might still be necessary. I grant you that the national office might not necessarily have had
anything
>> to do with the authoring of the Apple resolutions; still, It might still be a good idea to do an open letter just to really air this thing out and see where we
stand
>> and how we can best move forward from here.
>>>>
>>>> For now, then, I suspect that the discussion will stay on this list until I can get the enrgy enough to do up a rough draft of something. I will then send it
via
>> Drop box to the list and see what the feeling comes to be before sending it on. Good idea maybe or what y'all think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> Facebook:
>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ray,
>>>>>
>>>>> While anyone has a right to send an open letter to Dr. Maurer, I'm really not certain that people have correctly
>>>>> assessed the origin of these resolutions. I know that you know this, but many here may not know that our resolutions
>>>>> committee is large and resolutions are heard before that committee at the beginning of the convention with many,
>>>>> many members attending because it is an open meeting. When a resolution is said to be recommended to pass, it
>>>>> means that the committee voted to recommend passage and that does not necessarily mean that our national office
>>>>> was involved one way or another. There were a lot of us, though, myself included, who did not think these were
>>>>> unreasonable, even if I might have worded somethings differently. Resolutions can never make everyone completely
>>>>> happy. I now have access to a MACBook now and am working to learn more how they work and what the
>>>>> differences are. I can see that I might own an I Phone at some point, too, because Apple has done a good job of
>>>>> incorporating VoiceOver into their products in such a way as to make them stable. I further believe that some of what
>>>>> apple did with touch screens required taking a new look at a problem rather than trying to use existing experiences
>>>>> and many of us would not have had the imagination to come up with new solutions. Still, what is so terribly wrong in
>>>>> asking Apple to explain some of
>>>>> the concerns we raised? Language such as "bite the hand that feeds us" really scares me because we don't know if
>>>>> any of Apple's products would have been accessible if it were not for laws that we worked hard to pass. They might
>>>>> have, and as I have said before, they did go beyond what they would have had to do and they deserve credit for that,
>>>>> but they are also now a large company that greatly impacts our education, and I suspect will likely start involving our
>>>>> employment more and more as MACs become part of the business world. Some businesses are already using I Pads
>>>>> to deliver reports. Maybe we have to figure out what works with Apple and what doesn't in terms of how we try to
>>>>> influence them, but I just don't think it is wrong for us to expect that they at least provide some explanation of those
>>>>> things that concern us and not just the sort of stamping of feet and getting angry that Joseph describes. And of
>>>>> course, we also must be aware that what Joeseph is reporting doesn't necessarily represent an official response from
>>>>> Apple, either, so we need to be careful not to judge them on reactions shared with him.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would you want to say in a sort of open letter? Perhaps this is something that some of us in the NFB in
>>>>> Computer Science should also look at, what do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:41:07 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve, well said,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Alright. Here's my thinking now. I've said on this list that I'm planning an open letter to Dr. Maurer expressing my
>>>>> concerns over this issue. Given the nature of the discussion thus far, I should think that perhaps the prudent thing
>>>>> would be to address myself not only to Dr. Maurer, but perhaps to Apple CEO Tim Cook as well. Also, given the
>>>>> nature of the discussion on this list regarding this topic, I would like now to propose that the open letter should not be
>>>>> authored by myself alone; rather, that it should be a group effort put forth partly by myself but other Apple users on this
>>>>> list and, of course, Joseph and Steve, your input also.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>> Facebook:
>>>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 4, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph and others,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the things that has really made me feel uneasy with respect to any discussions regarding Apple is how
>>>>> people
>>>>>>> feel that Apple can do nothing wrong. As much as people can criticize how we might look at Google versus Apple,
>>>>>>> people need also to look at how we look at Apple versus other companies. In addition, Apple plays what appears
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> me to be a somewhat unique role in their arena and it means that they have both more power and more
>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>> than do other companies in terms of accessibility. I have to say that I have never been a "Condemn and deplore"
>>>>>>> guy, believing that approach is more for show than for really getting anything done, but I also feel that some of the
>>>>>>> opposition to these resolutions are based partly on a lack of understanding of a number of technical issues and
>>>>>>> political realities. Also, I
>>>>>>> think there is a sort of collision between our culture and Apple's that we're going to all have to work through
>>>>> because
>>>>>>> we need to get along with Apple and I think they need to get along with us as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, Joseph, your Adobe Photo Shop analogy is really a poor one. There is no reason that I can see why their
>>>>> menu
>>>>>>> structure and help system shouldn't be accessible. That doesn't mean they have to translate pictures for me as
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> imply. Because I was able to use the menus on PCPaint many years ago, I was able to help my sighted kids to
>>>>> learn
>>>>>>> the basics. Is that really so ridiculous? Would I feel we should go to the mat to get such accessibility? Probably
>>>>> not,
>>>>>>> but the concept isn't as unrealistic as you make it out to be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us had some concerns about how VoiceOver worked early on and had the opportunity to express those
>>>>>>> concerns to Apple. VoiceOver is more dependent upon developers following rules than has been the case with
>>>>>>> screen readers under Microsoft. One of our concerns was whether there would be problems getting software
>>>>>>> developers for the MAC to do what was necessary. One of the things that was emphasized to us by Apple
>>>>> personel
>>>>>>> was that Apple
>>>>>>> exercises a good bit of control over applications that are sold for the MAC. In addition, there were a limited number
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> development platforms so we didn't need to worry our little heads about whether applications would be accessible.
>>>>>>> This has seemed to be largely true, but it means that I tend to worry more when there appears to be slippage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another thing that needs to be considered is that Microsoft, Adobe, GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Google, Dell,
>>>>> Asus,
>>>>>>> Acer, Hewlet-Packard and other companies all are pieces of the larger accessibility picture in the Windows world. I
>>>>>>> would like to see Microsoft take more control over applications written for Windows, but they don't have the same
>>>>> sort
>>>>>>> of control that apple has, partly by their choice, but partly because of how computers that run Windows have
>>>>> evolved.
>>>>>>> We don't always know why something is not accessible, where the finger should be pointed. It makes it harder to
>>>>>>> know whom should be condemned and deplored. <smile> That's not to say there shouldn't be more condemning
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> deploring if one likes that sort of thing. Apple, on the other hand, provides the hardware, the operating system, the
>>>>>>> screen reader, and much of the software. They exercise a good deal of control over the development of other
>>>>>>> software as well. Apple is therefore in a position to enforce accessibility in a way that nobody else can at this point.
>>>>>>> Because of the
>>>>>>> relatively closed nature of development for the Apple, if they don't enforce it, we'll be out of luck. The word
>>>>> "closed"
>>>>>>> is used here not as a negative, but rather to describe how development works in that environment and that there
>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>> the same ability to get information that might make an inaccessible application accessible that currently exists under
>>>>>>> Windows. Having said that, the Windows world is moving in a direction that is similar to where Apple already is, so
>>>>>>> how Apple handles all of this could well set the tone for what happens with Windows in the years to come. We
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> seen cases where companies do what they need to to make things accessible enough to meet regulations and
>>>>> then
>>>>>>> the priority goes down. We can't afford to let that happen with Apple. I think that if we were to see Adobe give an
>>>>>>> award to an electronic text that could have been accessible but wasn't, that we'd be every bit as unhappy. We
>>>>> were
>>>>>>> pretty unhappy with Google's original inaccessible books and we let them know it, but you will probably recall that
>>>>>>> there were some other issues involved there besides Google's efforts, and there had been some effort made by
>>>>>>> Google to work with us. While Adobe and Google have certainly not been perfect, they have tended to reach out
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> us. We had a representative from Adobe at our NFBCS meeting this year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph, you mentioned that Apple's accessibility team was upset with both of our resolutions.
>>>>>>> If that is the case, I find it particularly upsetting. If even the thought of criticizing Apple gets them upset, even if it is
>>>>>>> voted down, that seems extremely controlling to me. Apple has gone beyond the call of duty to do what they have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make things accessible and we need to give them credit. However, we also should not forget that they could not
>>>>>>> have gotten into some of the markets that are important to them without making their products accessible. Schools
>>>>>>> are now buying I Pads left and right, and that couldn't have happened without making them accessible because of
>>>>>>> legal requirements. They responded to this challenge in a positive and even imaginative way, but it cost them
>>>>> money
>>>>>>> and took some time. If not for blind consumer groups such as the NFB, they would not have had to spend that
>>>>> time
>>>>>>> and money, so they probably didn't feel inclined to look favorably upon us from the start. They are much less likely
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> talk about where they are headed in certain areas than is Microsoft, for example. Therefore, we don't always know
>>>>>>> what shortcomings they plan to address already or what we should be trying to call to their attention. It means that
>>>>> we
>>>>>>> can't be as constructive as we might be if we had more information. That's what I meant by a clash in cultures,
>>>>> they
>>>>>>> don't tend to share plans with or seek input from anyone. <smile>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So let's figure out how best to move ahead. I just don't see where either resolution was out of line given the
>>>>> uniquely
>>>>>>> strong role Apple plays in software development and given its control over hardware, software, operating system,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> screen reader. I also think that the strong opposition to the resolutions indicates that we have to take into account
>>>>>>> the feelings of our membership on this in the future. There is still a sort of honeymoon with apple for many and as
>>>>> an
>>>>>>> organization we need to reflect the will of our membership. People need to understand, though, that there is a lot
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> is unique in this situation and that we're far more dependent upon Apple to make their products accessible than we
>>>>>>> are upon Microsoft, even though Microsoft certainly has power as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 05:46:28 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Talk to me when Adobe makes Photoshop for the blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OH WAIT, that doesn't make sense. It's a complex editing program for
>>>>>>>> photographs and other graphics. In order for it to be possible, you
>>>>>>>> would have to somehow be able to invent some magical technology that
>>>>>>>> allows blind people to see every shadow, every leaf, every color in
>>>>>>>> all of the 16.7 million possible combinations to pixel-level
>>>>>>>> accuracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The resolution demanded that Apple refuse to approve ANY APPLICATION
>>>>>>>> that was not completely accessible. This includes photo editors like
>>>>>>>> Photoshop, every video game, etc., and went so far as to condemn and
>>>>>>>> deplore the fact that they have not done so already!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you think that the only applications that can be allowed to exist
>>>>>>>> are those useful to the blind, then you seriously need to begin
>>>>>>>> living on Planet Earth. A blind person cannot use Photoshop. They
>>>>>>>> can do graphics (I have done graphics, under sleepshade, so it can be
>>>>>>>> done!), but the way a blind person does them is necessarily not going
>>>>>>>> to be the way a sighted person does it. Visual vs. non-visual
>>>>>>>> techniques, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with CSS on a website without
>>>>>>>> vision, and for more complex graphics there's SVG. SVG is kind of
>>>>>>>> complicated to do because it's a pretty complex XML format for which
>>>>>>>> presently no easy editor exists that we can use. But several
>>>>>>>> websites now use the very sharp Whozit graphic I made using for
>>>>>>>> Oregon using the SVG vector format. It can be done. But not with
>>>>>>>> Photoshop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 02:57:43PM -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a shame that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. While it's true
>>>>>>>>> Apple has done much to make their products usable by the blind we can't let
>>>>>>>>> the "Let's be grateful for what they've done" attitude prevent us from
>>>>>>>>> pushing them to the next level. I'd like to see that resolution brought back
>>>>>>>>> next year and broadened to include other software vendors such as Microsoft.
>>>>>>>>> If we don't force software creators to build in accessibility to their
>>>>>>>>> products by requiring such accessibility as an award criteria for
>>>>>>>>> outstanding development of their products. If we don't and software produced
>>>>>>>>> by Apple and others becomes inaccessible to the blind we will have only
>>>>>>>>> ourselves to blame by not insisting that those who reward software creators
>>>>>>>>> for outstanding development and product usage are not required to include
>>>>>>>>> accessibility features for the blind and disabled. Again it's a crying shame
>>>>>>>>> that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. We could pay the price for this
>>>>>>>>> failure in the future. I certainly hope not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 11:58 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well maybe people on this list that voted against it elaborate as to why
>>>>>>>>> they voted against it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>>>> 631-456-5394
>>>>>>>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Superior Travel, located in
>>>>>>>>> Baldwin, NY. www.superiortravel.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:56 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [Bulk] Re: a great article
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah yes, I have a recording of the stream of that particular days' events.
>>>>>>>>>> I must say, that was quite an episode.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Skype name:
>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Facebook:
>>>>>>>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> An example of not all of us following like zombies, at the national
>>>>>>>>>>> convention. A resolution about apple. Don't quite remember the wordage,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> it did not pass. More than half of the floor voted against it. If you
>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>> at the convention you would know what I am talking about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was one of the many who voted against the resolution. I didn't think
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> was fair, and not something the NFB needed to make an resolution for.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Others are welcome to chime in here...
>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no point in rehashing the lost funds as they have been forgiven in the
>>>>>>>>>>> midwest.
>>>>>>>>>>> i was the only one to push the issue and was blasted for it. it's things
>>>>>>>>>>> like that which make the nfb taste bitter.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to see more examples of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very tiring, very frustrating and gets us no where. So
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB members never ask the tough questions, and look the other way. What
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> the illegal behavior your speaking of? I am pretty sure if there was
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal behavior, we just as much any other person would ask the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "tough"
>>>>>>>>>>>> questions. Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If your so anti-NFB, why do you hang out here. Your welcome to leave
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>> time. We would rather you go away. So our list can go back to being
>>>>>>>>>>>> constructive and productive. Oh wait that is right, we are all lyres,
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> allow illegal behavior, and follow like zombies. You can think what you
>>>>>>>>>>>> want. But this skirting around subjects does nothing. We are not going
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> change our minds about what we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:07 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not accusing anyone, the event already happened.
>>>>>>>>>>>> the point is don't ask tough questions unless you have thick skin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:49 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see, my mistake.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You aren't taking pot shots at the ACB without facts to back it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are taking pot shots at the NFB without facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It takes a lot of guts to come into an organization and start accusing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> members of vaguely illegal activities without offering any specifics
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence. But I'm sure doing so will get you all the consideration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> due.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And with that, I think I'm about finished with the discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not talking about the acb but the point still applies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:09 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest if that helps you maximize your involvement with and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from an organization, you find another organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps though, we don't want to go down this road, or at least not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this fashion. The ACB has in the past allowed its members to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> baseless, unsupported, and uncontested claims of illegal behavior by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. It was rather off-putting, and I'd have thought so even if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not a Federationist! Indeed, it seems always to be so, in any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization, whether or not I have any affiliation with anybody.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there's something new and recent that needs to be discussed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB, we should probably do it, but in a new thread with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> details. If it's a rehash of old wrongdoings by former officers, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know how useful it would be to debate today. It's like discussing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable action taken by Janet Reno while she worked for Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clinton. Anyone personally affected would find it relevant, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole wouldn't be interested today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes the bad guys get away with it. Usually when the good guys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't stand up to them until its too late. But that takes me off on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own tangent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 03:53:02PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be at least one more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #16. Don't ask tough questions even when a member does something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable and probably illegal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NABS list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Blind Talk list"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; "Gary Legates" <gary.legates at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:02 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I try to learn more about both organizations, I have subscribed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the Braille Monitor and the Braille Forum. The Monitor, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know, is the Federation (NFB's) publication and the Forum is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Council (or ACB's) publication. I found a great article in July's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forum entitled "Fifteen Ways to Maximize your ACB Membership,"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fifteen tips on how to take advantage of all ACB (or any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that matter) has to offer. I think this could also apply to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Federation and to NABS or any other special-interest division, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some good advice. To be accurate, I added "or NFB" in parentheses
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some parts of the article. I have pasted the article below. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this? I promise I'm not trying to force the ACB down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throats; in fact, I'm a Federationist in nature, but want to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about both. Here is the article.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 WAYS TO MAXIMIZE YOUR ACB (or NFB) MEMBERSHIP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kenneth Semien Sr.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All too often, people join organizations without taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage of the opportunity to truly know intricate details of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mission, and operating practices. This can very well result in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> participation and could ultimately result in a decision to forfeit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could have been the ideal vehicle to enhance your life, build
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationships and effectively share personal skills and abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make an enormous difference. In an effort to encourage you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaningful efforts of ACB, I have included the tips listed below
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you in being all you can be and help you join with others whose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complement yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Be inquisitive and don't hesitate to ask questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Become familiar with the history, mission, and purpose by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reviewing it often enough to be able to repeat it to others. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone may realize that this is the organization they have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Make a personal commitment to identify ways to get involved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Find out who the officers are and become acquainted with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them and their roles and responsibilities, as well as members you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively participating in events and projects associated with our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. Make your skills and abilities known to leaders of your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter, affiliate, or the president of our organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Make every effort to participate in chapter, state affiliate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and national meetings, seminars, conferences and conventions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Inquire about available committees you may be able to serve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on to assist the organization in achieving its goals and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objectives.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to join committees that allow you to utilize your skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most effective and efficient manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. If you have access to the Internet, sign up for up-to-date
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news and announcements from all levels of our organization. Ask a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> president
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or member to tell you how to take advantage of this option.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9. Listen to or read publications/newsletters distributed by our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization on all levels. This is one of the best ways to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful resources, access inspirational stories, scholarships,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upcoming projects and events.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10. Identify special-interest groups that meet your personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs. These groups provide you the opportunity to network with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharing common interests, such as your prior or current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occupation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hobbies,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> health concerns and so much more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11. Obtain your own copy of the constitution and bylaws to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the agreed-upon operating practices and procedures of our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12. Prepare for future involvement as an officer by becoming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with officer titles and duties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13. Participate in conference calls to build your knowledge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as membership focus calls, periodic Office Hours conference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB president, committee calls, and special-interest group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14. Explore the web sites of your chapter, state affiliate and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our national organization. You may locate information on the web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> site
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you didn't think of inquiring about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15. Pay your annual dues faithfully and encourage others to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more you know and the more you become involved, the more you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will begin to know that you have joined a phenomenal organization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing to grow. Have a great ACB (or NFB) adventure!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (President
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit the I C.A.N. Foundation online at: www.icanfoundation.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information on our foundation and how it helps blind and visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired children in MD say "I can!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my BrailleNote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40s
>>>>>>>>>>> b
>>>>>>>>>>>> cglobal.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjosep
>>>>>>>>>>> h
>>>>>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbc
>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>> lobal.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%
>>>>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglob
>>>>>>>>>>>> al.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gm
>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglob
>>>>>>>>>>> al.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gm
>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>> database 6428 (20110901) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>> database 6429 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>> database 6431 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>>>>>>>> signature
>>>>>>>>>>> database 6431 (20110902) __________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>_______________________________________________
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
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