[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Ray Foret Jr rforetjr at att.net
Sun Dec 16 16:12:47 UTC 2012 

Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal person; therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if I had one.  Now, mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel to the dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as with some others, the staff is a much better option.  
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!

On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:

> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some members of
> NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal of such thinking
> came in reaction to over-the-top claims concerning the effectiveness of dogs
> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane use and
> denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog users. And have
> you ever noticed how many times such adamant refusal to consider NFB is
> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
> 
> Mike Freeman
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane
> Graves
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> 
> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't think of the
> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
> 
> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization (long before
> I joined) when members were giving each other grief about using a dog as
> opposed to using a cane. And I know, absolutely know, that that is one
> reason some blind people won't join us. I've had people tell me so, and
> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed. They are
> convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking to that belief no
> matter what.
> 
> Diane Graves
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
> Jr
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> 
> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
> 
> HTH.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> 
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi Guys,
>> 
>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this 
>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I 
>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by a 
>> statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm" the 
>> choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is to get 
>> where you need to go and do what you need to do.
>> 
>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind, others 
>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives, others are 
>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a 
>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you know 
>> what I mean.)
>> 
>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is to 
>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or not 
>> they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are 
>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything to 
>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are refusing 
>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think 
>> that is
> going to help him?
>> 
>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send them 
>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to take 
>> anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>> 
>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would 
>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He 
>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
> expense.
>> 
>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I 
>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would refuse 
>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too fat, or 
>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When you 
>> think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few blind 
>> people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel
> himself.
>> 
>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many 
>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there 
>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very 
>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane 
>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>> 
>> Diane Graves
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 	 [	:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>> Johnson
>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>> 
>> Peter,
>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with 
>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here as 
>> the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering provisions 
>> of employment; not Titles II or III.  It's a choice by this individual 
>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane, or 
>> guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk 
>> to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this person was 
>> employed, the application might be viable.
>> 
>> Steve
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter 
>> Donahue
>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law 
>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>> 
>> Good morning everyone,
>> 
>>   An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San 
>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind 
>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our 
>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting room 
>> we
> used for this event.
>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed up 
>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person began 
>> giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their neurologist 
>> and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of the cane due 
>> to this person's having seizures. This individual attended Perkins 
>> along with a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact 
>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a cottage with 
>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best travelers 
>> I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is totally blind and 
>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question undoubtedly 
>> met many other successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I 
>> myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
> depending on the situation.
>> 
>>   The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told 
>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them the/she 
>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation in 
>> to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
>> 
>>   When attempting to reason with the person in question members have 
>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the book 
>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has been 
>> told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether or not 
>> the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the 
>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also know 
>> not all blindness professionals have true belief in the capabilities 
>> of the blind. This individual obviously had a few such persons in 
>> their life to sell them short on their ability to travel independently 
>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual has 
>> been told that if they show up at any of our homes without their cane 
>> we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense 
>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their 
>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to 
>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that an 
>> individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and as 
>> negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply 
>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can 
>> help
> us wit this one.
>> 
>>   We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of independence 
>> and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't prohibit them 
>> from joining us they'll be a more effective contributor to the cause 
>> if they would embrace the alternative techniques of blindness and use 
>> them regularly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>> 
>> 
>> Peter Donahue
>> 
>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>> Isaiah 54:17
>> 
>> "While for our princes they prepare
>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>> Anonymous
>> 
>> 
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