[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Ray Foret Jr rforetjr at att.net
Sun Dec 16 18:41:14 UTC 2012 

Agreed.  Let's build 'em and tase 'em bro.


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!

On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:18 PM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:

> I always thought a "taser cane" would work wonders to speed up lines (as in
> lines to get into restaurants, check-in or check-out lines, etc.).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
> Jr
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> 
> As a weapon?  New one for me.  Yeah, I suspect that what we'd need is a cane
> with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in line who just
> will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against them
> and press the button in the handle.  Want to guess what  the unmoving
> pkerson receives?
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> 
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
>> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months and
>> add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
>> These included, but were not limited to:
>> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't moving
>> or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when they saw
>> you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo locator, a
>> goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying to stay awake
>> during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was taking place and
>> little movement was taking place, and there were tons more. 64 or 65
>> in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally. Lol!!
>> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave us
>> our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
>> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
>> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
>> human beings!!!
>> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go under
>> the weapon category though?
>> 
>> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>> Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal
> person;
>>> therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if I had one.
> Now,
>>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel to
> the
>>> dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as with some
> others,
>>> the staff is a much better option.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>> 
>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
> members
>>>> of
>>>> NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal of such thinking
>>>> came in reaction to over-the-top claims concerning the effectiveness of
>>>> dogs
>>>> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane use
> and
>>>> denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog users. And
> have
>>>> you ever noticed how many times such adamant refusal to consider NFB is
>>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane
>>>> Graves
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't think of
>>>> the
>>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
>>>> 
>>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization (long
>>>> before
>>>> I joined) when members were giving each other grief about using a dog as
>>>> opposed to using a cane. And I know, absolutely know, that that is one
>>>> reason some blind people won't join us. I've had people tell me so, and
>>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed. They
> are
>>>> convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking to that belief
>>>> no
>>>> matter what.
>>>> 
>>>> Diane Graves
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray
>>>> Foret
>>>> Jr
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
>>>> 
>>>> HTH.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
>>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I
>>>>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by a
>>>>> statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm" the
>>>>> choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is to get
>>>>> where you need to go and do what you need to do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind, others
>>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives, others are
>>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
>>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you know
>>>>> what I mean.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is to
>>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or not
>>>>> they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are
>>>>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything to
>>>>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are refusing
>>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think
>>>>> that is
>>>> going to help him?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send them
>>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to take
>>>>> anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would
>>>>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He
>>>>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
>>>> expense.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
>>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would refuse
>>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too fat, or
>>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When you
>>>>> think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few blind
>>>>> people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel
>>>> himself.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
>>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there
>>>>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very
>>>>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane
>>>>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: 	 [	:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>> Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter,
>>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with
>>>>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here as
>>>>> the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering provisions
>>>>> of employment; not Titles II or III.  It's a choice by this individual
>>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane, or
>>>>> guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk
>>>>> to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this person was
>>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Steve
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>>> Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
>>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>> 
>>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>>> 
>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind
>>>>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our
>>>>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting room
>>>>> we
>>>> used for this event.
>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed up
>>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person began
>>>>> giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their neurologist
>>>>> and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of the cane due
>>>>> to this person's having seizures. This individual attended Perkins
>>>>> along with a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact
>>>>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a cottage with
>>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best travelers
>>>>> I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is totally blind and
>>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question undoubtedly
>>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I
>>>>> myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
>>>> depending on the situation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them the/she
>>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation in
>>>>> to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members have
>>>>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the book
>>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has been
>>>>> told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether or not
>>>>> the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the
>>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also know
>>>>> not all blindness professionals have true belief in the capabilities
>>>>> of the blind. This individual obviously had a few such persons in
>>>>> their life to sell them short on their ability to travel independently
>>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual has
>>>>> been told that if they show up at any of our homes without their cane
>>>>> we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense
>>>>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their
>>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to
>>>>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that an
>>>>> individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and as
>>>>> negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply
>>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can
>>>>> help
>>>> us wit this one.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of independence
>>>>> and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't prohibit them
>>>>> from joining us they'll be a more effective contributor to the cause
>>>>> if they would embrace the alternative techniques of blindness and use
>>>>> them regularly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>> 
>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>>> 
>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare
>>>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>>>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>>>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>>>>> Anonymous
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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>> 
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