[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Desiree Oudinot
turtlepower17 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 22 22:28:39 UTC 2013
A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
battlefield to prove his worth to society.
On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
> carlson
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
> change!
>
> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>
>
>
> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>> and stand above the rest.
>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at one
>>> or
>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the Blind.
>>> I
>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what you
>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others of
>>> like
>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to understand
>>> you,
>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>> world
>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you
>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there
>>> is
>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For me
>>> this
>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American
>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>> to
>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a commitment
>>> to
>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our time,
>>> our
>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>> that
>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us
>>> to
>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
>>> reading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>> Wolfe
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>>> Not?
>>>
>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is improvization
>>> not
>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information from
>>> on
>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long as
>>> you
>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>> for
>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I could
>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>> individuals
>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group
>>> that
>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a rotten
>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of
>>> NFB,
>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> sincerely,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> Kelby,
>>>>
>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation. It
>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at
>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more
>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>
>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know is
>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround us
>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line between
>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we have
>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most other
>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing attitudes
>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>> mandate.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of the
>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>
>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case
>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to travel
>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did not
>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily having
>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available for
>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course, but
>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>
>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of our
>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome as
>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a job
>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you do
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my
>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything the
>>>>>NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for this
>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to
>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>months.
>>>>
>>>>>Kelby
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>
>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement for
>>>>>mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>dog.
>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get locally
>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't know
>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to mention
>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want
>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>
>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in
>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate
>>>>>as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>through us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>
>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that much
>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else straightaway.
>>>>
>>>>> Kelby
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>
>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which do
>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer one
>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>
>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the number
>>>>>of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give up
>>>>>a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>
>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>dog program:
>>>>
>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>Students
>>>>> wishing to
>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>complete the
>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>>>>>student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>>>>guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program will
>>>>>have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant is a suitable
>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>
>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training would
>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>> This
>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>>>>students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>
>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>
>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program
>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready
>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs
>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training with
>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>
>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption agencies
>>>>>place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>abuse.
>>>>
>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the
>>>>>dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>We
>>>>> have
>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the right
>>>>>year.
>>>>> $150
>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to train
>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cordially,
>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>> Bob Marley
>>>
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