[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
kelby carlson
kelbycarlson at gmail.com
Fri Mar 22 22:50:31 UTC 2013
My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
"plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>
> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>> carlson
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>> Not?
>>
>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>> change!
>>
>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>> and stand above the rest.
>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>> one
>>>> or
>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the Blind.
>>>> I
>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what you
>>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others of
>>>> like
>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to understand
>>>> you,
>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>>> world
>>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>> you
>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>> there
>>>> is
>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For me
>>>> this
>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American
>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>> to
>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a commitment
>>>> to
>>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our
>>>> time,
>>>> our
>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>>> that
>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
>>>> us
>>>> to
>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
>>>> reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Wolfe
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>> or
>>>> Not?
>>>>
>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>> improvization
>>>> not
>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information from
>>>> on
>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long
>>>> as
>>>> you
>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>>> for
>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I could
>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>> individuals
>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group
>>>> that
>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>> rotten
>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of
>>>> NFB,
>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sincerely,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation. It
>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at
>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more
>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know is
>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround us
>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line between
>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we have
>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most other
>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing attitudes
>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of the
>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case
>>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to travel
>>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did not
>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily having
>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available for
>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course, but
>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of our
>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome as
>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a job
>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you do
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my
>>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything the
>>>>>>NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for this
>>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to
>>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>months.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement for
>>>>>>mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>dog.
>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get locally
>>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't know
>>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to mention
>>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want
>>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>
>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in
>>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate
>>>>>>as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>through us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that much
>>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>>getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else straightaway.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>
>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which do
>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer one
>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the number
>>>>>>of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give up
>>>>>>a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>dog program:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>>Students
>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>>>>>>student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>>>>>guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program will
>>>>>>have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant is a suitable
>>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training would
>>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>>>>>students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program
>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready
>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs
>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training with
>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption agencies
>>>>>>place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>abuse.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the
>>>>>>dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>We
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the right
>>>>>>year.
>>>>>> $150
>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to train
>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> il.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> t
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>>>
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