[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
justin williams
justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Thu Mar 21 23:02:29 UTC 2013
Open minded. I like it.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:55 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
To clarify further, I am still open to the possibility of joining the NFB at
some point. These are the reservations I have right now, but there's nothing
that says I may come to a different opinion later.
On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> If that methodologyworks for you, then by all means stick with it.
Don't
> do something different just because someone says you should. Do your
> thing.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:26 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
> or Not?
>
> Hi,
> I guess I should try to clarify something. I'm not saying that those
> who join the NFB or anything else are wrong. Some of us are simply
> more social than others. Some people do thrive on the sense of
> community being part of something provides. But I personally don't get
> much from that. As I said, I prefer to observe, rather than actively
> jump into the fray. I realize that saying this probably does put the
> wrong image in some people's minds. It probably sounds like an attack,
> or maybe even a justification for anarchy. but I assure you, my
> motives aren't that paranoid or shady. This is just my feelings and
> experiences, which I only brought up because it's not something people
> often feel they're allowed to talk about.
>
> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> maybe so, but that's life. People do that online, offline, at the
>> dinner table, at a roundtable discussion...you catch my drift. It
>> doesn't really matter where or why people jump down your throat.
>> That's just one of the uglier truths about humanity.
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> hi desiree,
>>>
>>> your viewpoint of taking involvement no farther than email lists is
>>> interesting but not 100% correct.
>>> if you say what you really think or have any opinion that is even
>>> slightly against the grain, you will get blasted.
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Desiree Oudinot" <turtlepower17 at gmail.com>
>>> To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>> Centers or Not?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why
>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased, not
>>>> to mention realistic view, of how the members of each organization
>>>> live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or
>>>> convention, there's the expectation that one must carry themselves
>>>> a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all the right
>>>> catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for or of the
>>>> blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you draw a large
>>>> number of like-minded individuals together, and get them all to
>>>> focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what have you, the
>>>> people will either put their best or worst foot forward
>>>> collectively. There is little time for individual thought
>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above the
rest.
>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as
>>>> a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions
>>>> best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
>>>> speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my values
>>>> and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly
>>>> feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
>>>> should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront
>>>> of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am
>>>> content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out
>>>> about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would
>>>> probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and
shamed.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
>>>>> at one
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join
>>>>> the American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
Blind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my
>>>>> own life experience indicates that having influence means joining
>>>>> with others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them
>>>>> and get them to understand you, and then acting together in a
>>>>> concerted way to bring about the better world we all say we want.
>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five
>>>>> minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there
>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
>>>>> For me this is the National Federation of the Blind. For others
>>>>> it is the American Council of the Blind. Though the organizations
>>>>> may disagree from time to time, one thing most all of us share is
>>>>> that we have made a commitment to blind people that extends beyond
>>>>> words. We are willing to put our time, our energy, and our money
>>>>> into helping you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or
>>>>> ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
>>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long
>>>>> as it works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as
>>>>> logn as you share the information with fellow blind individuals
>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>> group that your apart of cause we should all work together in
>>>>> dealing with a rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm
>>>>> never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully. However, in the
>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are
>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked up
>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with others
in the Federation.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know
>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I
>>>>>> swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and you may see
>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality
>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually
>>>>>> gets out and travels. These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I
>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though
>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we
>>>>>> are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
>>>>>> tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time when there
>>>>>> was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
>>>>>> other centers. We believed that we have to affect one's attitude
>>>>>> toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed
>>>>>> that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used
>>>>>> so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were. Still,
>>>>>> I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple
>>>>>> of months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point
>>>>>> of the individual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall
>>>>>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
>>>>>> but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that
>>>>>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was
>>>>>> not the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the
>>>>>> role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there
>>>>>> is more to travel than techniques. Having said all this, though,
>>>>>> I also believe that what we have come to call structured
>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In
>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base
>>>>>> from which to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training
>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but
>>>>>> we would probably have adopted it more easily having had training
>>>>>> in an NFB center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>>>>>> for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not
>>>>>> be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
>>>>>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some
>>>>>> of what you are hearing here would have been a part of your
>>>>>> training at an NFB Center. You would likely have been given the
>>>>>> chance to interact personally with people who had similar
>>>>>> experiences so that you could ask them questions. You can get
>>>>>> some of this information here, of course, but what about the many
experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because
>>>>>> it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are
>>>>>> things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
>>>>>> time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really
>>>>>> think that is the point. The point is how can we help you now
>>>>>> and how can you help us and other blind people? Are there things
>>>>>> you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
>>>>>> comfortable doing? We could even explore here some of the things
>>>>>> that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement
>>>>>> from others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I
>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
>>>>>> training centers or not. I care more that you have what you need
>>>>>> to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to
>>>>>> live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways
>>>>>> we can help you do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
>>>>>>>far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no
>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know
>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
>>>>>>>training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer any
>>>>>>>reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so
>>>>>>>wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay for
>>>>>>>a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real
>>>>>>>space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
>>>>>>>replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
>>>>>>>mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>>>>>then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision
>>>>>>>as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog
>>>>>>>doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give him the
>>>>>>>direction to do so.
>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
>>>>>>>between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or
>>>>>>>not.
>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>to one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
resources.
>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really
>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools. There are some
>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others. But, there are
>>>>>>> people who prefer one approach over another. I don't really
>>>>>>> think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit
>>>>>>>the number of people choosing to have training from an NFB
>>>>>>>guide dog school, should one be started. I don't know to many
>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
>>>>>>>know the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
>>>>>>>background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references
>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or false the NFB guide
>>>>>>>dog program will have all ready had accurate information
>>>>>>>gathered for them by the training center and can be assured that
>>>>>>>the applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
>>>>>>>of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane travel component of their
>>>>>>>immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>time students often experience when at guide dog training
facilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
>>>>>>> and participating in designated center activities. Like
>>>>>>> students who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers
>>>>>>> those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their
>>>>>>> own prior to completion of the training. In the beginning they
>>>>>>> could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer
>>>>>>> but would be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes"
>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of socialization
>>>>>>> and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done
>>>>>>> by current guide dog programs. The dogs would return for a
>>>>>>> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
>>>>>>> person. Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future
>>>>>>> blind owner they along with an instructor would be sent to the
>>>>>>> center where the student receiving the dog will be trained.
>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one
>>>>>>> of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>> with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide
dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
>>>>>>>the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require
>>>>>>>more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes.
>>>>>>>Adoption agencies place children into homes surely we can
>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of situation
>>>>>>>the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
point.
>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
>>>>>>>been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
>>>>>>>that's the right year.
>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
>>>>>>> to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings,
>>>>>>> fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>info for blindtlk:
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>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
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>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacob
>>>>>>>son%4
>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%
>>>>>> 40gma
>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>> anything"
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthl
> ink.ne
>>>>> t
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
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