[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 00:29:41 UTC 2013
Bryan,
I would agree with you there. That's just one of the risks you take when
joining a discussion forum like this. Although the majority of us don't do
that, it sometimes happens; I've experienced it for myself.
Chris
Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
Schulz
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:12 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
hi desiree,
your viewpoint of taking involvement no farther than email lists is
interesting but not 100% correct.
if you say what you really think or have any opinion that is even slightly
against the grain, you will get blasted.
Bryan Schulz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Desiree Oudinot" <turtlepower17 at gmail.com>
To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
> Hi,
> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
> and stand above the rest.
> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>
> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>> one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not
>> join the American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of
>> the Blind. I suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority
>> in being what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right,
>> but my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can understand
>> them and get them to understand you, and then acting together in a
>> concerted way to bring about the better world we all say we want.
>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five
>> minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot to
>> be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For me this
>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
>> American Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree
>> from time to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have
>> made a commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping you,
>> whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a finger to
>> help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and we certainly can
>> use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Peter Wolfe
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>> or Not?
>>
>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get
>> any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's
>> Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information. Make-up
>> yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long as it
>> works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as logn as
>> you share the information with fellow blind individuals that is my
>> thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group that your
>> apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a rotten
>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part
>> of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Peter
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Kelby,
>>>
>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>> It has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly
>>> how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my
>>> cane left and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a
>>> cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality of one's
>>> travel skills and more to do with whether one actually gets out and
>>> travels. These are not easy things to measure.
>>>
>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know
>>> is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that
>>> surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have
>>> some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally
>>> confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain
>>> how we would accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't
>>> do it. I believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing
>>> line between NFB training centers and many other centers. We
>>> believed that we have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and
>>> oneself while most other centers believed that they need to concentrate
on teaching techniques.
>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>> the lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical
>>> of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>
>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>> case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of
>>> good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>> travel than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also
>>> believe that what we have come to call structured discovery is a
>>> valid difference in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it
>>> takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which to work.
>>> Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have adopted this
>>> approach on our own to some degree, but we would probably have
>>> adopted it more easily having had training in an NFB center.
>>>
>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available
>>> for close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell
>>> me which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are
>>> hearing here would have been a part of your training at an NFB
>>> Center. You would likely have been given the chance to interact
>>> personally with people who had similar experiences so that you could
>>> ask them questions. You can get some of this information here, of
>>> course, but what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>
>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>> our centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome
>>> as a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>
>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a
>>> job when you get out of college and that you are able to live as
>>> full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can
>>> help you do that.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>
>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
>>>>anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
>>>>evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
>>>>offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is bad.
>>>>(Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know
>>>>my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would
>>>>allow people interested to pay for a little instruction to get a
>>>>sense of their methodology in real space time rather than forcing
>>>>people to commit to six to nine months.
>>>
>>>>Kelby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>
>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
>>>>guide dog.
>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
so.
>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either
>>>>not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a
>>>>dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me
>>>>where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>
>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org,
>>>>just book through us.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>
>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.
>>>
>>>> Kelby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>
>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which
>>>> do things differently from others. But, there are people who
>>>> prefer one approach over another. I don't really think that NFB
>>>> needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>
>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>number of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
>>>>school, should one be started. I don't know to many people who
>>>>can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>
>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>dog program:
>>>
>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>on folks.
>>>>Students
>>>> wishing to
>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>complete the
>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
>>>>background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references and
>>>>other information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog
>>>>program will have all ready had accurate information gathered for
>>>>them by the training center and can be assured that the applicant
>>>>is a suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>
>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>> This
>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>time students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>
>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>
>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable
>>>> dogs from donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy
>>>> raising wouldn't be that much different than is done by current
>>>> guide dog programs. The dogs would return for a period of training
>>>> when they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
>>>> ready to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
>>>> dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>> with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide
dogs.
>>>
>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>agencies place children into homes surely we can figure out a way
>>>>to more accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
into.
>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>abuse.
>>>
>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>We
>>>> have
>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>right year.
>>>> $150
>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>
>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>> train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy
>>>> food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Cordially,
>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>> cum laude Auburn University
>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
>> Peter Q Wolfe
>> "Stand up for your rights"
>> Bob Marley
>>
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