[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

RJ Sandefur joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 00:33:00 UTC 2013 

Why does the ACB hate this model of training? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or 
Not?


> Good evening everyone,
>
>    It's also well documented that our ideas, philosophy, and methods are
> the most effective. Many agencies that once shunned us now embrace these
> positions and techniques and have implemented them in to their programs. 
> If
> it gets results who cares about the "NFB way or no way" horsepuckey! With
> state and federal belt tightening going on this trend will continue in to
> the future as agencies for the blind strive to get the best bang for their
> bucks.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
>
> Desiree,
>
> I know it's a figure of speech, but... lions' den? Is that what you see 
> the
> NFB as?
>
> Chris
>
> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> Public Relations Committee
> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
> Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support from 
> NFB
> members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's den, though.
>
> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
>> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
>> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
>> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
>> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
>> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
>> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
>> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
>> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on
>>> the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> kelby carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now,
>>>> I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
>>>> person and do what I can individually to help others as well. There
>>>> is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place
>>>> where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to
>>>> attend the convention one of these years, though, and my mind could
>>>> definitely change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I
>>>> say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
>>>> Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
> rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why
>>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased, not
>>>>> to mention realistic view, of how the members of each organization
>>>>> live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or
>>>>> convention, there's the expectation that one must carry themselves
>>>>> a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all the right
>>>>> catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for or of the
>>>>> blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you draw a large
>>>>> number of like-minded individuals together, and get them all to
>>>>> focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what have you, the
>>>>> people will either put their best or worst foot forward
>>>>> collectively. There is little time for individual thought
>>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above the
> rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as
>>>>> a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions
>>>>> best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
>>>>> speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my values
>>>>> and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly
>>>>> feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
>>>>> should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront
>>>>> of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am
>>>>> content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out
>>>>> about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would
>>>>> probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and
> shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
>>>>>> at one or two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will
>>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>> what you might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my
>>>>>> own life experience indicates that having influence means joining
>>>>>> with others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them
>>>>>> and get them to understand you, and then acting together in a
>>>>>> concerted way to bring about the better world we all say we want.
>>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five
>>>>>> minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot
>>>>>> to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.  For me
>>>>>> this is the National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is
>>>>>> the American Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may
>>>>>> disagree from time to time, one thing most all of us share is that
>>>>>> we have made a commitment to blind people that extends beyond
>>>>>> words.  We are willing to put our time, our energy, and our money
>>>>>> into helping you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or
>>>>>> ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to
>>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
>>>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
>>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long
>>>>>> as it works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as
>>>>>> logn as you share the information with fellow blind individuals
>>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>>> group that your apart of cause we should all work together in
>>>>>> dealing with a rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm
>>>>>> never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
>>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the
>>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are
>>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up
>>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with 
>>>>>>> others
> in the Federation.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
>>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know
>>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I
>>>>>>> swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may see
>>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality
>>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually
>>>>>>> gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I
>>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
>>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though
>>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
>>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we
>>>>>>> are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
>>>>>>> tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there
>>>>>>> was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
>>>>>>> other centers.  We believed that we have to affect one's attitude
>>>>>>> toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed
>>>>>>> that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used
>>>>>>> so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still,
>>>>>>> I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple
>>>>>>> of months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point
>>>>>>> of the individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>>> all good travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall
>>>>>>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
>>>>>>> but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that
>>>>>>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was
>>>>>>> not the case for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the
>>>>>>> role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there
>>>>>>> is more to travel than techniques.  Having said all this, though,
>>>>>>> I also believe that what we have come to call structured
>>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In
>>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base
>>>>>>> from which to work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training
>>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but
>>>>>>> we would probably have adopted it more easily having had training
>>>>>>> in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
>>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>>>>>>> for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the
>>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not
>>>>>>> be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
>>>>>>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some
>>>>>>> of what you are hearing here would have been a part of your
>>>>>>> training at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the
>>>>>>> chance to interact personally with people who had similar
>>>>>>> experiences so that you could ask them questions.  You can get
>>>>>>> some of this information here, of course, but what about the many
> experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one 
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because
>>>>>>> it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are
>>>>>>> things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
>>>>>>> time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really
>>>>>>> think that is the point.  The point is how can we help you now
>>>>>>> and how can you help us and other blind people?  Are there things
>>>>>>> you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
>>>>>>> comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some of the things
>>>>>>> that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement
>>>>>>> from others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I
>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
>>>>>>> training centers or not.  I care more that you have what you need
>>>>>>> to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to
>>>>>>> live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways
>>>>>>> we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
>>>>>>>>far inferior to anything  the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no
>>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for  this claim, and no one I know
>>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
>>>>>>>>training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any
>>>>>>>>reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so
>>>>>>>>wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested  to pay for
>>>>>>>>a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real
>>>>>>>>space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a
>>>>>>>>replacement  for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
>>>>>>>>mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>>>>>>then a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision
>>>>>>>>as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog
>>>>>>>>doesn't  know when to cross the street, I have to give him the
>>>>>>>>direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
>>>>>>>>between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the
>>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or
>>>>>>>>not.
>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>>to one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
>>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the
>>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent:
>>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really
>>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools.  There are some
>>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others.  But, there are
>>>>>>>> people who prefer one approach over another.  I don't really
>>>>>>>> think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>>nine month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit
>>>>>>>>the  number of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB
>>>>>>>>guide dog school, should  one be  started.  I don't know to many
>>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her
>>>>>>>>comments below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to
>>>>>>>>know  the student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
>>>>>>>>background information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog  programs that must  rely on references
>>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide
>>>>>>>>dog program  will have all ready had accurate information
>>>>>>>>gathered for  them by the training center and can be assured that
>>>>>>>>the applicant  is a  suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>>the student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
>>>>>>>>of transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that
>>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane  travel component  of their
>>>>>>>>immersion training  would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>>time students  often experience when at guide dog training
> facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
>>>>>>>> and participating in designated center activities.  Like
>>>>>>>> students who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers
>>>>>>>> those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their
>>>>>>>> own prior to completion of the training.  In the beginning they
>>>>>>>> could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer
>>>>>>>> but would be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes"
>>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The
>>>>>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations.  The usual period of socialization
>>>>>>>> and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done
>>>>>>>> by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would return for a
>>>>>>>> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
>>>>>>>> person.  Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future
>>>>>>>> blind owner they along with an instructor would be sent to the
>>>>>>>> center where the student receiving the dog will be trained.
>>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one
>>>>>>>> of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>> with the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training 
>>>>>>>> guide
> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>> additional ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must
>>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>>>>>>>>would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of
>>>>>>>>the blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require
>>>>>>>>more references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.
>>>>>>>>Adoption  agencies place  children  into homes surely we can
>>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know  what  sort of situation
>>>>>>>>the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I
>>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases
>>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>>the dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
> point.
>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>>had increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has
>>>>>>>>been $150 since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think
>>>>>>>>that's the  right year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at
>>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
>>>>>>>> to train a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings,
>>>>>>>> fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandma
>>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacob
>>>>>>>>son%4
>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%
>>>>>>> 40gma
>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40eart
>>>> hlink.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%4
>>>> 0gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
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>>>> il.com
>>>>
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>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
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>>> gmail.com
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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