[Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

RJ Sandefur joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 01:52:10 UTC 2013 

I've heard that at one time NFB was aginst the use of guide dogs. Is this a 
fact? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario


> Good evening everyone,
>
>    Before we can talk about drawing up business plans, securing funding,
> and building a facility we first need to discuss the issue among ourselves
> something that has yet to happen during our national convention. It wasn't
> through NAGDU that I learned about GDB'S initiative to employ blind 
> persons
> in its training department but rather I learned it from school
> representatives staffing their table during the 2005 national convention.
>
>    This afternoon I checked the NAGDU Web site for any information as to
> the status of guide dog-related issues and did not find any recent updates
> nor did I find the most recent issue of "Harness UP" NAGDU's Newsletter. 
> If
> anyone has the most recent issue of Harness Up they can send I'd like to
> read it.
>
>    Since I paid my NAGDU dues at last year's national convention I should
> be receiving Harness UP but haven't gotten a single issue. If I was
> receiving it like I should and discovered that there has been activity
> concerning the issues we've been discussing I would have kept my mouth 
> shut!
> Marion if you could check to be sure I receive future issues of Harness Up
> I'll appreciate that very much.
>
>    No guide dog school forces students to attend if they choose not too do
> so. An NFB guide dog program would be no different. We have members who 
> for
> whatever reason choose to attend traditional centers instead of the NFB
> centers and their choices are respected.
>
>    As for support from our national leadership the issue has never been
> discussed at convention let alone receiving a vote of yes or no. I recall 
> in
> 1984 that a discussion of whether or not an orientation center should be
> housed at our national headquarters. I was there and have recordings of 
> that
> convention item. In the end it was decided to continue to support efforts 
> to
> improve the type and quality of training offered by existing 
> rehabilitation
> programs and to assist states wishing to establish new programs. Since 
> that
> time three NFB training centers were established in Colorado, Louisiana, 
> and
> Minnesota. Several other state programs for the blind  have adopted the
> Structured-Discovery Immersion Model and base their orientation and
> adjustment programs on the NFB philosophy. Hawaii, Nebraska, and New 
> Mexico
> are examples of the latter case. All of the above-mentioned centers and
> state programs have received approval from the National Blindness
> Professional Certification Board (NBPCB.) No guide dog school has received
> this agency approval certification.
>
>    Just as this discussion occurred in 1984 a similar item to discuss the
> establishment of an NFB guide dog program needs to take place during the
> national convention to permit all interested persons to be heard and to 
> air
> their views to determine what direction such an initiative should take if 
> it
> goes anywhere at all. This is how we'll find out how much support there is
> for the creation of such a program and whether it will receive support 
> from
> the entire organization. Now to catch a few missed hours of
> Bach-Around-The_Clock.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
>
> Peter, I understand the concern but I forsee some isues with having an NFB
> guide dog school. 1 Would national support such a project? 2 people 3 
> Would
> the school require the person to come there? Just my thoughts. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
>
>> Hello Kelby and everyone,
>>
>>    And that's fine. Just be willing to support the creation of a guide 
>> dog
>> program for those willing to make those kind of commitments. I wouldn't 
>> be
>> caught dead working in another sheltered workshop but this morning signed
>> our petition to urge Congress to adopt the legislation to end the payment
>> of
>> subminimum wages to blind shop workers.
>>
>> If people are happy with the guide dog program they attend more power to
>> them but they have no right to stand in the way of those desiring a guide
>> dog school that is more innovative and is willing to take guide dog
>> training
>> and placement to a new dimension.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Kelby Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>
>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>> purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>> straightaway.
>>
>> Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>> real lack of
>> quality training for blind people.  I don't really think that's
>> the case
>> with guide schools.  There are some schools which do things
>> differently from
>> others.  But, there are people who prefer one approach over
>> another.  I
>> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
>> training.
>>
>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>> month NFB
>> center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
>> people
>> choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
>> one be
>> started.  I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
>> their life
>> to get a guide dog.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>    Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>> past so she
>> knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments below I'd
>> like to
>> suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>>
>>        Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>> centers for
>> blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
>> housing
>> students in training to be constructed.  Hold on folks.  Students
>> wishing to
>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>> complete the
>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>> "Bootcamp
>> training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>> student
>> inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>> information on the
>> applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current guide dog
>> programs that must
>> rely on references and other information that may be true or
>> false the NFB
>> guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
>> gathered for
>> them by the training center and can be assured that the applicant
>> is a
>> suitable candidate for a dog.
>>
>>    This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>> student is
>> up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
>> them to the
>> use of a dog.  Students that successfully complete the cane
>> travel component
>> of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>> This
>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>> other
>> aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>> students
>> often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>
>>    Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>> to wear
>> sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>> participating
>> in designated center activities.  Like students who undergo cane
>> travel
>> instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
>> encouraged to
>> travel on their own prior to completion of the training.  In the
>> beginning
>> they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
>> user/trainer but would
>> be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
>> their own
>> using their dogs.
>>
>>    As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>> operate
>> similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The program
>> would operate
>> its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>> donations.  The usual
>> period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>> different
>> than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would
>> return for a
>> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
>> person.  Once the
>> dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
>> along with an
>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
>> receiving the dog
>> will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
>> operate from
>> one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>> "Bootcamp"
>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>> with the
>> dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>> training is
>> one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>
>>    The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>> guide dog
>> program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>> ideas.  If it's
>> to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
>> participants.  All the best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>
>>
>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>> would
>> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the blind
>> applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
>> references, ask
>> the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place
>> children
>> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately know
>> what
>> sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I think
>> there
>> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the
>> police
>> and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies
>> can't be
>> used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>>
>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>> the dog
>> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.  We
>> have
>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
>> Eye's
>> concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
>> increased
>> over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since
>> the
>> beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.
>> $150
>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>
>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>> substantially
>> lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various
>> guide dog
>> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
>> numbers
>> vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
>> equipment and
>> other niceties cost money.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
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