[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

justin williams justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 22 02:07:51 UTC 2013


That's a good name for him.  You try that at convention...

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Nusbaum
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:06 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

LOL! So I guess we can call Dr. Maurer Mufasa from now on? <Grin!>

Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409


-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin
williams
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:54 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

Roar Roar Roar.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Nusbaum
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:49 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

Desiree,

I know it's a figure of speech, but... lions' den? Is that what you see the
NFB as?

Chris

Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409


-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support from NFB
members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's den, though.

On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or 
> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get 
> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of 
> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular 
> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend 
> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a 
> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is 
> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I 
> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over 
> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out 
> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't 
> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of 
> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot 
> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor 
> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am 
> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This, 
> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains 
> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>
>
>
> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by 
>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on 
>> the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>
>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> kelby carlson
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
>>> Centers or Not?
>>>
>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of 
>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I 
>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's 
>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, 
>>> I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind 
>>> person and do what I can individually to help others as well. There 
>>> is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place 
>>> where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to 
>>> attend the convention one of these years, though, and my mind could 
>>> definitely change!
>>>
>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation 
>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I 
>>> say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the 
>>> Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB 
>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
rubber meets the road.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why 
>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider 
>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and 
>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only 
>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading 
>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased, not 
>>>> to mention realistic view, of how the members of each organization 
>>>> live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or 
>>>> convention, there's the expectation that one must carry themselves 
>>>> a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all the right 
>>>> catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for or of the 
>>>> blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you draw a large 
>>>> number of like-minded individuals together, and get them all to 
>>>> focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what have you, the 
>>>> people will either put their best or worst foot forward 
>>>> collectively. There is little time for individual thought 
>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above 
>>>> the
rest.
>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as 
>>>> a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions 
>>>> best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to 
>>>> speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my values 
>>>> and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly 
>>>> feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor 
>>>> should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront 
>>>> of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am 
>>>> content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out 
>>>> about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would 
>>>> probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and
shamed.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have looked 
>>>>> at one or two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will 
>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National 
>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being 
>>>>> what you might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my 
>>>>> own life experience indicates that having influence means joining 
>>>>> with others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them 
>>>>> and get them to understand you, and then acting together in a 
>>>>> concerted way to bring about the better world we all say we want.
>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five 
>>>>> minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot 
>>>>> to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.  For me 
>>>>> this is the National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is 
>>>>> the American Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may 
>>>>> disagree from time to time, one thing most all of us share is that 
>>>>> we have made a commitment to blind people that extends beyond 
>>>>> words.  We are willing to put our time, our energy, and our money 
>>>>> into helping you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or 
>>>>> ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to 
>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
>>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>
>>>>>     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is 
>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you 
>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, 
>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long 
>>>>> as it works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as 
>>>>> logn as you share the information with fellow blind individuals 
>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest 
>>>>> group that your apart of cause we should all work together in 
>>>>> dealing with a rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm 
>>>>> never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.  
>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were 
>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and 
>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the 
>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are 
>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up 
>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with 
>>>>>> others
in the Federation.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations 
>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know 
>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I 
>>>>>> swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may see 
>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality 
>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually 
>>>>>> gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the 
>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I 
>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes 
>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though 
>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are 
>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we 
>>>>>> are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone 
>>>>>> tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there 
>>>>>> was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many 
>>>>>> other centers.  We believed that we have to affect one's attitude 
>>>>>> toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed 
>>>>>> that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing 
>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was 
>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that 
>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's 
>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used 
>>>>>> so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, 
>>>>>> I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple 
>>>>>> of months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point 
>>>>>> of the individual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not 
>>>>>> all good travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall 
>>>>>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help 
>>>>>> but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people 
>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that 
>>>>>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was 
>>>>>> not the case for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the 
>>>>>> role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there 
>>>>>> is more to travel than techniques.  Having said all this, though, 
>>>>>> I also believe that what we have come to call structured 
>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In 
>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base 
>>>>>> from which to work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training 
>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but 
>>>>>> we would probably have adopted it more easily having had training 
>>>>>> in an NFB center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to 
>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons 
>>>>>> for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the 
>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed 
>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not 
>>>>>> be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee 
>>>>>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some 
>>>>>> of what you are hearing here would have been a part of your 
>>>>>> training at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the 
>>>>>> chance to interact personally with people who had similar 
>>>>>> experiences so that you could ask them questions.  You can get 
>>>>>> some of this information here, of course, but what about the many
experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because 
>>>>>> it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are 
>>>>>> things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent 
>>>>>> time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really 
>>>>>> think that is the point.  The point is how can we help you now 
>>>>>> and how can you help us and other blind people?  Are there things 
>>>>>> you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is 
>>>>>> comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some of the things 
>>>>>> that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement 
>>>>>> from others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly 
>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I 
>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference in 
>>>>>> training centers or not.  I care more that you have what you need 
>>>>>> to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to 
>>>>>> live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways 
>>>>>> we can help you do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from 
>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far, 
>>>>>>>far inferior to anything  the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no 
>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for  this claim, and no one I know 
>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the 
>>>>>>>training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any 
>>>>>>>reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so 
>>>>>>>wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested  to pay for 
>>>>>>>a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real 
>>>>>>>space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine 
>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a 
>>>>>>>replacement  for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, 
>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get 
>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no 
>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own 
>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the 
>>>>>>>mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's 
>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and 
>>>>>>>then a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision 
>>>>>>>as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog 
>>>>>>>doesn't  know when to cross the street, I have to give him the 
>>>>>>>direction to do so.
>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to 
>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will 
>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in 
>>>>>>>between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the 
>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or 
>>>>>>>not.
>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness 
>>>>>>>to one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the 
>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel 
>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria, 
>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST - 
>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National 
>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser 
>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
resources.
>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families 
>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the 
>>>>>>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the 
>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that 
>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the 
>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent: 
>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a 
>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really 
>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools.  There are some 
>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others.  But, there are 
>>>>>>> people who prefer one approach over another.  I don't really 
>>>>>>> think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the 
>>>>>>>nine month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit 
>>>>>>>the  number of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB 
>>>>>>>guide dog school, should  one be  started.  I don't know to many 
>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the 
>>>>>>>past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her 
>>>>>>>comments below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an 
>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment 
>>>>>>>centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a 
>>>>>>>facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to 
>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's 
>>>>>>>"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to 
>>>>>>>know  the student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of 
>>>>>>>background information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog  programs that must  rely on references 
>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide 
>>>>>>>dog program  will have all ready had accurate information 
>>>>>>>gathered for  them by the training center and can be assured that 
>>>>>>>the applicant  is a  suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that 
>>>>>>>the student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable 
>>>>>>>of transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that 
>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane  travel component  of their 
>>>>>>>immersion training  would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete 
>>>>>>>other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted 
>>>>>>>time students  often experience when at guide dog training
facilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required 
>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes 
>>>>>>> and participating in designated center activities.  Like 
>>>>>>> students who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers 
>>>>>>> those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their 
>>>>>>> own prior to completion of the training.  In the beginning they 
>>>>>>> could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer 
>>>>>>> but would be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes"
>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would 
>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The 
>>>>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain 
>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations.  The usual period of socialization 
>>>>>>> and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done 
>>>>>>> by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would return for a 
>>>>>>> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind 
>>>>>>> person.  Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future 
>>>>>>> blind owner they along with an instructor would be sent to the 
>>>>>>> center where the student receiving the dog will be trained.
>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one 
>>>>>>> of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their 
>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training 
>>>>>>> with the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house 
>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training 
>>>>>>> guide
dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run 
>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have 
>>>>>>> additional ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must 
>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I 
>>>>>>>would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of 
>>>>>>>the blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require 
>>>>>>>more references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.
>>>>>>>Adoption  agencies place  children  into homes surely we can 
>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know  what  sort of situation 
>>>>>>>the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for 
>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I 
>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases 
>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of 
>>>>>>>the dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
point.
>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing 
>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost 
>>>>>>>had increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has 
>>>>>>>been $150 since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think 
>>>>>>>that's the  right year.
>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for 
>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at 
>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs 
>>>>>>> to train a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings, 
>>>>>>> fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>info  for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for 
>>>>> anything"
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>> Bob Marley
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