[Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

Sat Mar 23 03:10:50 UTC 2013

I think you are spot on.

Judy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com>
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

> Hi all,
>
> I certainly respect anyone's choice of guide dog schools, but I would not
> equate this issue to that of sheltered workshops.
>
> I don't know about all of the schools, and I very much appreciate that 
> many
> schools have been bastions of negative attitudes about blindness.
>
> My understanding is, however, that at least in the case of Guide Dogs for
> the Blind in San Rafael, California, you have the option to take full
> ownership of your dog after one year.  I know some will see this as still
> too paternalistic, and I respect that, but I think it's also important to
> recognize that this isn't just about the blind person, but about the dogs.
> Schools like Guide Dogs invest tens of thousands of dollars in raising ,
> training, and supporting the dogs and their handlers.  They have a 
> interest
> in ensuring that this investment is maximized, and also to ensure that the
> dogs are well cared for.
>
> Blind people get the dogs and the training for free -- if we are so
> insistent on full and outright ownership of the dogs, should we also not
> accept the full cost of the dog's training?  I suspect this is far beyond
> the ability of most blind people to manage.
>
> Guide Dogs also provides a lot of follow-up care, including the paying of
> most vet bills, which runs hundreds of dollars every year.
>
> The follow-up visits are more than just check-ins, but training
> opportunities.  I think it's a matter of perspective as to how intrusive 
> or
> even oppressive these visits are.
>
> I think it would be interesting to know how many dogs are taken away from
> their handlers.  I suspect that the number is very small, but still it's
> worth knowing to get a sense of the scope of the issue.
>
> I think it's one thing to talk of ownership, but another thing to take on
> the full cost of doing so, or the full cost of running such an operation
> ourselves.  I certainly would want as many blind people in charge of guide
> dog schools as possible, assuming they have the management skills to do 
> so,
> and I recognize that far too many schools see their work as charity not
> empowerment of blind people, but this is not the case of all schools, and
> Seeing Eye isn't the only school trying to balance the needs of the blind
> person and the dog and the community.
>
> I'm not a dog user, but I still felt compelled to offer some thoughts for
> what they are worth -- thanks!.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brian Miller
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blind [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Danielle Antoine
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:03 AM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>
>> Peter, Amen and Hallelujah! the seeing Eye's policies just
>> fit my personal philosophy. It is why after doing much
>> extensive research and consideration I always go back to TSE!
>> I view the ownership and mandatory follow-ups by most of the
>> schools as degrading and akin to workshop pay. something is
>> wrong with this lack of trust in in the quality they put out.
>> graduates should be treated as the grown adults they are not
>> as grade-schoolers where ththey must be checked up on and
>> graded so to speak. TSE never ever checks up on its grad and
>> they only come when and if you ever need them....providing
>> honest and fair assessments. Only way I'll ever go anywhere
>> else is if they should ever refuse me service or my health
>> requirements dictate.
>>
>> Sometimes, circumstances beyond our control interferes with a
>> team and shortens the working relationship and that should be
>> taken into consideration by the schools retaining ownership.
>> JMO and personal experience!
>>
>> On 12/16/12, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> > Money money money!
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Diane
>> > Graves
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:13 AM
>> > To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>> >
>> > Now that would be a good idea. After all, we have a strong
>> O&M program
>> > run by our own for cane users. Why *not* have a guide dog
>> program? I
>> > like that idea.
>> >
>> > Diane Graves
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Peter
>> > Donahue
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:49 PM
>> > To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> > Subject: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>> >
>> > Good afternoon everyone,
>> >
>> >     I'm increasingly becoming convinced that some of this
>> > misunderstanding is being generated by our own guide dog
>> users and not
>> > just those outside the federation. This came clear to me
>> judging from
>> > the reactions of those attending this year's NAGDU Meeting
>> in Dallas
>> > last summer concerning several issues being discussed.
>> >     For years the NFB has been trying to convince guide dog
>> schools to
>> > end the practice of retaining ownership of their dogs and adopt a
>> > policy similar to that of The Seeing Eye. Put simply as Lucas Frank
>> > said last summer "We have no (Ownership policy)! When students
>> > complete training they leave the school with their dog and it is
>> > there's."We also know that a number of schools that retain
>> ownership
>> > have wrongfully taken dogs from their handlers with no
>> explaination of
>> > why. We just picketted Amazon last Wednesday. I'll retract
>> this belief
>> > concerning the use of guide dogs when NAGDU organizes
>> pickets of guide
>> > dog programs that wrongfully take dogs from their blind handlers to
>> > bring public awareness to this shabby practice.
>> >
>> >         Likewise I worked with several NAGDU Members to
>> craft a "Guide
>> > Dog consumer Bill of Rights." During the NAGDU meeting
>> schools at the
>> > convention were asked to indicate whether or not they would
>> "Sign on"
>> > and recognize the rights of the blind consumers they serve. Some
>> > refused to comment. Others side-stepped the issue all together and
>> > still others wanted to "Negotiate."
>> >
>> > I shure hope we don't go down the negotiation path and allow these
>> > outfits to water down this document. As far as I know not one guide
>> > dog program has signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights.
>> >
>> >     Going back to the matter of ownership retention when Marion
>> > Gwizdala and a few others spoke out strongly against the beliefs of
>> > guide dog programs that ownership was necessary pittifully few in
>> > attendence applauded. Yet these same people joind others to
>> help bring
>> > the house down when it came to cheering on those that spoke in
>> > opposition to the continued payment of subminamum wages to
>> blind shop
>> > workers! If you asked me something is very wrong with that picture!
>> >
>> >     If the NFB was more agressive in addressing these
>> matters we would
>> > be more visible and people would know that we do indeed recognize
>> > one's choice to use a guide dog for independent travel and
>> are a force
>> > in the affairs of guide dog users. If folks find this
>> offensive I'll
>> > gladly retrack what I said when the following conditions are met:
>> >
>> > 1. Greater publicity is given to the practice of ownership
>> retention
>> > of dogs by guide dog schools.
>> > 2. All schools recognize the NFB'S Guide Dog Consumer Bill
>> of Rights
>> > as it was originally drafted.
>> > 3. More is done to urge all guide dog programs to employ
>> blind persons
>> > as guide dog trainers and class instructors.
>> > 4. (This is the big one.) We entertain discussion
>> concerning the NFB'S
>> > establishing its own guide dog program; a program operated by guide
>> > dog users for guide dog users!
>> >
>> >     I have repeatedly suggested such a discussion to President
>> > Gwizddala but to date it has not been an item for discussion during
>> > the NAGDU Meeting.
>> >
>> >     If there are still folks that think we're anty guide
>> dog we should
>> > look within our organization to see if there are actions
>> and lack of
>> > actions that are still perpetuating this myth. Persuing
>> more agressive
>> > solutions to the issues I've discussed above could put us
>> further down
>> > the road to ending this misunderstanding. All the best.
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter Donahue
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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