[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Sat Mar 23 01:35:23 UTC 2013

Kelby,

As I recall, you are in Northfield, but I could be remembering that incorrectly.  I can certainly accept that you are going to be comfortable in the campus environment and that you probably have what you need 
on or close to campus.  What I would like to suggest is that rather thantrying to figure out the value of what anyone writes about a given program or philosophy, you try to get some exposure to a variety of other 
blind people including but not limited to those of us in the Federation.  From my own experience, it is really not possible to assess one's own skills without seeing where one fits in with the skills of others.  It isn't a 
matter of competition, it is more a matter of knowing what is possible.  Conventions are a good way to do this, especially if you can spend some time with people outside of meetings.  I've known too many of us, 
including myself at one time, who defined what is possible for blind people to do as what we could do as individuals.  Yet, I found it to be encouraging to find that while I wasn't doing too badly for myself, there 
were people who had already been where I wanted to go, and that possibly there were things I could learn to do that I had not before considered.

I could be reading what you are saying inaccurately, but I think there is also some misunderstanding about philosophy.  You point out the various sources of your philosophy of live.  The NFB has helped me 
greatly by giving me a philosophy that I can apply to blindness.  Frankly, though, I was attracted to the NFB because much of what was expressed fit ideas I already had, ideas I thought were unique to me.  
Having said that, that which drives my life philosophically comes from many sources as well.  Saying one feels aligned with the NFB's philosophy does not mean it is the only source of one's philosophy.  

There is a lot about blindness to explore, and it is one of the good things about lists like this.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:22:01 -0500, kelby carlson wrote:

>Steve,

>I think we have excahnged some emails on other lists in the past.
>Thanks for your response!

>I think we probably agree more than we disagree, actually. While i
>don't travel off campus much (there generally isn't a need to) I am
>very confident in the environment I am in and can adapt to new
>environments quickly. I was never given the kind of comprehensive
>training that the NFB offers, nor was I systematically educated in
>their philosophy. Rather, different abilities i have gained came at
>different times, and my philosophy of life (not just blindness) came
>from many different sources. My parents, schools, mentors and the
>blindness instructors I worked with were all instrumental in giving me
>a positive attitude toward blindness and advocacy. What I am focused
>on is what is best in my situation, and my experiences (for whatever
>reason) don't seem to match up well with many of the Federationists I
>have talked to. Anecdotal evidence is fine as far as it goes. But as I
>said, I haven't been given compelling practical reasons by any
>Federationist I know personally that have convinced me that I would
>require comprehensive training. As I said in my last email, I am still
>vague on what structured discovery even entails. (Believe me, I have
>read a good deal of NFB literature and am still unsure of just how
>it's practiced.) I have heard it said that "you don't know what you're
>missing" if you haven't attended an NFB center. This is hard to argue
>with, but also very unhelpful. This is why i wish there were more
>opportunities for less comprehensive, more specific training for the
>purpose of further empowerment and education. I have every confidence
>that I have the skills necessary to go on from college and make my way
>in the world, but self-improvement is also something I strive for. Do
>you see where I am coming from?

>On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> Kelby,
>>
>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.  I can
>> only tell you that I received training before there were
>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>> generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the
>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
>> missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up much
>> of what I missed primarily because of my association with others in the
>> Federation.  It has more to do with being confident enough
>> to try new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't
>> know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how
>> many inches I swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may see
>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing
>> the quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually
>> gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to
>> measure.
>>
>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past, but I
>> don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I do
>> know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>> us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though we
>> have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally
>> confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we are
>> uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we
>> can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there was a
>> clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many other centers.  We
>> believed that we have to affect one's attitude toward
>> blindness and oneself while most other centers believed that they need to
>> concentrate on teaching techniques.  The common belief
>> among some other centers was that changing attitudes toward blindness was
>> dictating a philosophy and was outside of their mandate.
>>
>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there is a
>> more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief
>> in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of the
>> lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, I am
>> skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of
>> the individual.
>>
>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all good
>> travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall
>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were getting
>> where they needed to go without assistance, and that
>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case
>> for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the
>> role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>> travel than techniques.  Having said all this,
>> though, I also believe that what we have come to call structured discovery
>> is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In
>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which to
>> work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training
>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we would
>> probably have adopted it more easily having had
>> training in an NFB center.
>>
>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.  Often, you
>> start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be more
>> open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>> for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the details of the
>> time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be
>> available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some of what you
>> are hearing here would have been a part of your
>> training at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the chance to
>> interact personally with people who had similar
>> experiences so that you could ask them questions.  You can get some of this
>> information here, of course, but what about the many
>> experiences that are not discussed?
>>
>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.  My
>> goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>> because it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are things
>> you didn't get that you would have gotten had you
>> spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really
>> think that is the point.  The point is how can we help you
>> now and how can
>> you help us and other blind people?  Are there things you are not
>> comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable
>> doing?  We could even explore here some of the things that many of us have
>> overcome as a result of the encouragement from others.
>>
>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I see
>> them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I
>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>> centers or not.  I care more that you have what you
>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to live
>> as full a life as you can live, and I believe there
>> are ways we can help you do that.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>
>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
>>>far inferior to anything the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no
>>>actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know well
>>>in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
>>>training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any
>>>reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so
>>>wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay for a
>>>little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real
>>>space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>months.
>>
>>>Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a
>>>replacement for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted
>>>guide, or a guide dog.
>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
>>>mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>then a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision
>>>as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog
>>>doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give him the
>>>direction to do so.
>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
>>>between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the
>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or
>>>not.
>>>Have a great night all.
>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
>>>organization.
>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>
>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
>>>Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
>>>Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
>>>resources.  Any vacation package booked between November 6
>>>2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the
>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>Scenario
>>
>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>>> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>> purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
>>>else
>>> straightaway.
>>
>>> Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>Scenario
>>
>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>> real lack of
>>> quality training for blind people.  I don't really think that's
>>> the case
>>> with guide schools.  There are some schools which do things
>>> differently from
>>> others.  But, there are people who prefer one approach over
>>> another.  I
>>> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
>>> training.
>>
>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>nine
>>> month NFB
>>> center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
>>> people
>>> choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
>>> one be
>>> started.  I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
>>> their life
>>> to get a guide dog.
>>
>>> Cindy
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>> past so she
>>> knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments below
>>>I'd
>>> like to
>>> suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>>
>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>> centers for
>>> blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
>>> housing
>>> students in training to be constructed.  Hold on folks.
>>>Students
>>> wishing to
>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>> complete the
>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>>> "Bootcamp
>>> training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>>> student
>>> inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>> information on the
>>> applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current guide dog
>>> programs that must
>>> rely on references and other information that may be true or
>>> false the NFB
>>> guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
>>> gathered for
>>> them by the training center and can be assured that the
>>>applicant
>>> is a
>>> suitable candidate for a dog.
>>
>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>the
>>> student is
>>> up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
>>> them to the
>>> use of a dog.  Students that successfully complete the cane
>>> travel component
>>> of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>> This
>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>> other
>>> aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>> students
>>> often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>
>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>> to wear
>>> sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>> participating
>>> in designated center activities.  Like students who undergo cane
>>> travel
>>> instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
>>> encouraged to
>>> travel on their own prior to completion of the training.  In the
>>> beginning
>>> they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
>>> user/trainer but would
>>> be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
>>> their own
>>> using their dogs.
>>
>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>> operate
>>> similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The program
>>> would operate
>>> its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>>> donations.  The usual
>>> period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>>> different
>>> than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would
>>> return for a
>>> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
>>> person.  Once the
>>> dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
>>> along with an
>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
>>> receiving the dog
>>> will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
>>> operate from
>>> one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>>> "Bootcamp"
>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>> with the
>>> dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>> training is
>>> one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>
>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>> guide dog
>>> program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>> ideas.  If it's
>>> to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
>>> participants.  All the best.
>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>
>>
>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>>> would
>>> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>blind
>>> applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
>>> references, ask
>>> the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place
>>> children
>>> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately
>>>know
>>> what
>>> sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I
>>>think
>>> there
>>> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the
>>> police
>>> and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies
>>> can't be
>>> used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>>
>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>> the dog
>>> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>We
>>> have
>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
>>> Eye's
>>> concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
>>> increased
>>> over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since
>>> the
>>> beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.
>>> $150
>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>
>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>> substantially
>>> lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various
>>> guide dog
>>> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
>>> numbers
>>> vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
>>> equipment and
>>> other niceties cost money.
>>
>>> Julie
>>
>>
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