[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Sat Mar 23 03:51:10 UTC 2013
Hey! That's a *great* idea! You gonna be in Orlando? Up with Bacchus!!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin
williams
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:33 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
I actually feel you on some of that. I had the same feeling on the slightly
left out feeling. I just went to the bar and got drunk.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
den, though.
On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>
>
>
> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>
>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>>> carlson
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>>> Not?
>>>
>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>> change!
>>>
>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>>> and stand above the rest.
>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>>> one
>>>>> or
>>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>> you
>>>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others
>>>>> of
>>>>> like
>>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to understand
>>>>> you,
>>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>>>> world
>>>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>>> you
>>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>>> there
>>>>> is
>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For
>>>>> me
>>>>> this
>>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
>>>>> American
>>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>>> to
>>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a commitment
>>>>> to
>>>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our
>>>>> time,
>>>>> our
>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>>>> that
>>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
>>>>> us
>>>>> to
>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks
>>>>> for
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>> or
>>>>> Not?
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>> improvization
>>>>> not
>>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information from
>>>>> on
>>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long
>>>>> as
>>>>> you
>>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>>>> for
>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>> could
>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>> individuals
>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group
>>>>> that
>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>> rotten
>>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of
>>>>> NFB,
>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at
>>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more
>>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know is
>>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>>>>>> us
>>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line between
>>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
>>>>>> techniques.
>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>>>>> case
>>>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>> travel
>>>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily having
>>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available for
>>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course, but
>>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome as
>>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a job
>>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you do
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my
>>>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>>dog.
>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want
>>>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>>whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in
>>>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>>through us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that much
>>>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>>>getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else straightaway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which do
>>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>>should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give up
>>>>>>>a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>dog program:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>>information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>>>>>>guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>>information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant is a suitable
>>>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>>>>>>students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program
>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready
>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs
>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training with
>>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>>accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>abuse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the
>>>>>>>dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>year.
>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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4
>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>> anything"
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>
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