[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Sat Mar 23 11:26:40 UTC 2013
Bloody good sumarry Mike. Got it spot on.
Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Mar 22, 2013, at 11:37 PM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Structured discovery is pretty simple and is pretty-much what it sounds
> like: rather than always being taught "route travel", one is introduced to
> the parameters of an area and is encouraged to explore, figuring out routes
> for oneself. At the beginning, routes are, of course, taught. But people are
> also taught to puzzle out a route, figuring out why it works. As one becomes
> a more skilled cane-user, one learns more and more to figure out routes for
> oneself so that eventually, one can go to strange places without being
> scared to death by the uncertainties of travel and can trust himself/herself
> to figure stuff out without the need to always be trained by an O&M
> instructor.
>
> In truth, most of us do some of both; I sometimes have someone walk with me
> somewhere once and after that, I figure out different ways to get to that
> place.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
> carlson
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:22 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> Steve,
>
> I think we have excahnged some emails on other lists in the past.
> Thanks for your response!
>
> I think we probably agree more than we disagree, actually. While i don't
> travel off campus much (there generally isn't a need to) I am very confident
> in the environment I am in and can adapt to new environments quickly. I was
> never given the kind of comprehensive training that the NFB offers, nor was
> I systematically educated in their philosophy. Rather, different abilities i
> have gained came at different times, and my philosophy of life (not just
> blindness) came from many different sources. My parents, schools, mentors
> and the blindness instructors I worked with were all instrumental in giving
> me a positive attitude toward blindness and advocacy. What I am focused on
> is what is best in my situation, and my experiences (for whatever
> reason) don't seem to match up well with many of the Federationists I have
> talked to. Anecdotal evidence is fine as far as it goes. But as I said, I
> haven't been given compelling practical reasons by any Federationist I know
> personally that have convinced me that I would require comprehensive
> training. As I said in my last email, I am still vague on what structured
> discovery even entails. (Believe me, I have read a good deal of NFB
> literature and am still unsure of just how it's practiced.) I have heard it
> said that "you don't know what you're missing" if you haven't attended an
> NFB center. This is hard to argue with, but also very unhelpful. This is why
> i wish there were more opportunities for less comprehensive, more specific
> training for the purpose of further empowerment and education. I have every
> confidence that I have the skills necessary to go on from college and make
> my way in the world, but self-improvement is also something I strive for. Do
> you see where I am coming from?
>
>
>
> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> Kelby,
>>
>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation. It
>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at
>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more
>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>> easy things to measure.
>>
>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know is
>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround us
>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line between
>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we have
>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most other
>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing attitudes
>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>> mandate.
>>
>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of the
>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>
>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case
>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to travel
>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did not
>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily having
>> had training in an NFB center.
>>
>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available for
>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course, but
>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>
>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of our
>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome as
>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>
>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a job
>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you do
>> that.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>
>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my
>>> local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything the
>>> NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for this
>>> claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>> reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>> me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>> mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to
>>> pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>> real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>> months.
>>
>>> Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>> Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement for
>>> mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>> dog.
>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get locally
>>> then you don't know what you are missing.
>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>> and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>> and the other services that are given there.
>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>> dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>> adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't know
>>> when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to mention
>>> when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want
>>> to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>> whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>> want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>> Have a great night all.
>>> Take care and god bless.
>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>> one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>
>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in
>>> Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>> Echevarria,
>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>> the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>> and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>> friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate
>>> as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>> through us.
>>
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that much
>>> time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>> getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else straightaway.
>>
>>> Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which do
>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer one
>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>
>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>> month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the number
>>> of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>> should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give up
>>> a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>
>>> Cindy
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>> past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>> below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>> dog program:
>>
>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>> centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>> facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>> on folks.
>>> Students
>>> wishing to
>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>> complete the
>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>>> student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>> information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>> guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>> information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program will
>>> have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>> training center and can be assured that the applicant is a suitable
>>> candidate for a dog.
>>
>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>> student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>> transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>> complete the cane travel component of their immersion training would
>>> be eligible to receive a dog.
>>> This
>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>> other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>> students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>
>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>
>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program
>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready
>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs
>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training with
>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>
>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>
>>
>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>> would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>> blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>> references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption agencies
>>> place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>> accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed into.
>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>> with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>> reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>> abuse.
>>
>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the
>>> dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>> We
>>> have
>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>> concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>> increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the right
>>> year.
>>> $150
>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>
>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to train
>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>
>>> Julie
>>
>>
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