[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Sat Mar 23 11:30:56 UTC 2013
You must not forget, however, that back in the 70's and 80's, circumstances were different then: and, attitudes towrad us were more hostile then than now. Most likely, they tell you that you represent all blind people because of the "seen one you seen 'em all" thing. So, they want just to make sure that the one they see is as compentant as possible. Still, after all, we're only human-blind or no.
Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Mar 22, 2013, at 12:12 AM, "justin williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> And this is what I was talking about, the stuff I just choose to ignore.
> Call it selective philosophy. I don't represent all blind people. I have
> had NFB folks try and drill that nonsense into me. Now, I understand that
> it is upon my shoulders to appear competent, but that is more personal than
> because I am blind. Does some of the representation leak in, sure maybe a
> little. However, it is not fair for me to have to always put that on
> myself. I'd die real early if I did that constantly. No, I represent me.
> This is the part of the nfb philosophy I usually disguard most of the time
> that is. There is some validity to it, but if you are smart, you quit
> doing that crap most of the time.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michelle
> Medina
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 12:02 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> I've been to both NFB and non-NFB training centers. Truthfully, I didn't
> really enjoy either of them. I cook, clean, travel and use my computer quite
> well and have done it my way.
>
> Having said that, and this is kind of veering into the other topic discussed
> here about organizations, their philosophies and such, one of my biggest
> problems with the NFB is that at the particular center I was at, and maybe
> not every NFB'er believes this? was that I was told repeatedly that when I
> stepped outside, I represented ALL blind people.
> I'm half Mexican and half white. I won't be representing ALL Mexicans or ALL
> white folks any time soon. I was born with a Tessier Cleft. I was one of
> eight when I was born in the entire world with it, now I'm one of between 50
> and 56 people. I won't be representing every person with a Tessier Cleft
> either. Do I represent ALL NIRVANA fans? ALL NONPOINT fans? ALL SEETHER
> fans? No. Why? Because I'm one person, an individual. I represent my
> beliefs, my ideas, my thoughts, feelings, emotions, my experiences, not my
> Dad's or my sister's or anybody else's on this list. So how can I possibly
> represent ALL blind people?
>
> As I said, this is what I learned. Correct me or explain the NFB definition
> of representing ALL blind people if I'm off base and there is one.
> Michelle
>
> On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> But Desiree ...
>>
>> Sighted people *are* defined by the organizations they belong to. I
>> dare say there are few Roman Catholics who proudly trumpet their faith
>> while at the same time proudly exhibiting their membership cards to
>> NARAL. (huge grin)
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Desiree Oudinot
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:42 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>> or Not?
>>
>> That's sound advice. If sighted people aren't defined by the
>> organizations or groups they belong to, why should we be? i'm not
>> saying that anyone said or even implied that in this discussion, but I
>> always get a distinct feeling from those who are deeply involved in
>> either the NFB or ACB that they feel your thoughts and opinions don't
>> matter if you're not also involved.
>>
>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have definitely met other blind people who were not in the NFB who
>>> I
>> have
>>> learned a lot from. You just have to take everyone's philosophy use
>>> the
>>> parts that work foryou.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Desiree Oudinot
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>> or Not?
>>>
>>> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
>>> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
>>> den, though.
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>>>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>>>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way*
>>>> of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
>>>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal
>>>> to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I
>>>> also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you
>>>> will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded
>>>> community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of
>>>> superiority over sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have
>>>> felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place at some NFB events
>>>> because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't
>>>> have the kind of personal history that most other federationists
>>>> seem to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone
>>>> from joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
>>>> discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal
>>>> experience. This, then, is not an argument for or against the
>>>> NFB--it probably explains more about me than the Federation. I hope that
> helps clarify a little.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but
>>>>> by their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
>>>>> on the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> kelby carlson
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However,
>>>>>> I have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
>>>>>> (It's totally possible those reservations will go away some day.)
>>>>>> For now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as
>>>>>> a blind person and do what I can individually to help others as
>>>>>> well. There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just
>>>>>> at a place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I
>>>>>> do hope to attend the convention one of these years, though, and
>>>>>> my mind could definitely change!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
>>>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I
>>>>>> say and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of
>>>>>> value in the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree
>>>>>> with. Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to
>>>>>> the NFB philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes
> where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
>>>>>>> why I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
>>>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
>>>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
>>>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must
>>>>>>> carry themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired
>>>>>>> by all the right catch phrases. That's not limited to
>>>>>>> organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of human
>>>>>>> nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their
>>>>>>> best or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
>>>>>>> root and stand above the rest.
>>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
>>>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
>>>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
>>>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits
>>>>>>> in with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my
>>>>>>> life. I don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to
>>>>>>> find my purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose
>>>>>>> unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low point in the
>>>>>>> organization's history. I am content with this, and I feel that I
>>>>>>> have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which
>>>>>>> most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing for
>>>>>>> fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
>>>>>>>> looked at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that
>>>>>>>> you will not join the American Council of the Blind or the
>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
>>>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>>>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
>>>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
>>>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we
>>>>>>>> all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear
>>>>>>>> if you listen to five minutes of the news is the word
>>>>>>>> infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said for having a way
>>>>>>>> to effect the change we want. For me this is the National
>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American Council
>>>>>>>> of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>>>>>> to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>>>>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
>>>>>>>> finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and
>>>>>>>> we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever
>>>>>>>> information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all
>>>>>>>> I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>>>> could careless as logn as you share the information with fellow
>>>>>>>> blind individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter
>>>>>>>> what special interest group that your apart of cause we should
>>>>>>>> all work together in dealing with a rotten situation to make it
>>>>>>>> better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB
>>>>>>>> or any of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler
>>>>>>>>> and have generally managed my life successfully. However, in
>>>>>>>>> the work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there
>>>>>>>>> are things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked
>>>>>>>>> up much of what I missed primarily because of my association
>>>>>>>>> with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new
>>>>>>>>> situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
>>>>>>>>> don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how
>>>>>>>>> many inches I swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and
>>>>>>>>> you may see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing
>>>>>>>>> the quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether
>>>>>>>>> one actually gets out and travels. These are not easy things
>>>>>>>>> to measure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What
>>>>>>>>> I do know is that most of us are affected by the general
>>>>>>>>> attitudes that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.
>>>>>>>>> Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities are,
>>>>>>>>> unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to
>>>>>>>>> believe it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given
>>>>>>>>> thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there was
>>>>>>>>> a time when there was a clear dividing line between NFB
>>>>>>>>> training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>>> have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself
>>>>>>>>> while most other centers believed that they need to concentrate
>>>>>>>>> on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
>>>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a
>>>>>>>>> couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
>>>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who
>>>>>>>>> shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in
>>>>>>>>> and help but there were too many people to try to help all at
>>>>>>>>> once.
>>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and
>>>>>>>>> that what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer
>>>>>>>>> was not the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to
>>>>>>>>> diminish the role of good travel techniques, only to make the
>>>>>>>>> point that there is more to travel than techniques. Having
>>>>>>>>> said all this, though, I also believe that what we have come to
>>>>>>>>> call structured discovery is a valid difference in how one
>>>>>>>>> learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn but
>>>>>>>>> provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>>>>> not attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on
>>>>>>>>> our own to some degree, but we would probably have adopted it
>>>>>>>>> more easily having had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem
>>>>>>>>> to be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes
>>>>>>>>> reasons for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you
>>>>>>>>> with the details of the time I almost missed a flight because I
>>>>>>>>> allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to
>>>>>>>>> have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
>>>>>>>>> airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get
>>>>>>>>> to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been
>>>>>>>>> a part of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely
>>>>>>>>> have been given the chance to interact personally with people
>>>>>>>>> who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of
>>>>>>>>> course, but what about the many experiences that are not
>>>>>>>>> discussed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>>>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that
>>>>>>>>> there are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had
>>>>>>>>> you spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I
>>>>>>>>> don't really think that is the point. The point is how can we
>>>>>>>>> help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?
>>>>>>>>> Are there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps
>>>>>>>>> someone else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore
>>>>>>>>> here some of the things that many of us have overcome as a
>>>>>>>>> result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
>>>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I
>>>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference
>>>>>>>>> in training centers or not. I care more that you have what you
>>>>>>>>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are
>>>>>>>>> able to live as full a life as you can live, and I believe
>>>>>>>>> there are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>>>> federationists-that my local training simply must have been
>>>>>>>>>> far, far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet
>>>>>>>>>> seen no actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one
>>>>>>>>>> I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to
>>>>>>>>>> why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me
>>>>>>>>>> can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>>> mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
>>>>>>>>>> interested to pay for a little instruction to get a sense of
>>>>>>>>>> their methodology in real space time rather than forcing people
>>>>>>>>>> to commit to six to nine months.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
>>>>>>>>>> replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>>>> sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>>> locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>>>> areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and
>>>>>>>>>> the mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>>>>>>>> then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my
>>>>>>>>>> vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills,
>>>>>>>>>> my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give
>>>>>>>>>> him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>>> mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>>>> either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or
>>>>>>>>>> in between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
>>>>>>>>>> skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx
>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with
>>>>>>>>>> kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
>>>>>>>>>> Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>>> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@ec
>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST
>>>>>>>>>> - #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>>>> for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>>> 2013
>>>>>>>>>> and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>>>>>>>> and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to
>>>>>>>>>> the affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
>>>>>>>>>> NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>>> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>>>> purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
>>>>>>>>>> else straightaway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> really think that's the case with guide schools. There are
>>>>>>>>>> some schools which do things differently from others. But,
>>>>>>>>>> there are people who prefer one approach over another. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>>>> nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely
>>>>>>>>>> limit the number of people choosing to have training from an
>>>>>>>>>> NFB guide dog school, should one be started. I don't know to
>>>>>>>>>> many people who can give up a year of their life to get a
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in
>>>>>>>>>> the past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>>>> comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>>>> NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and
>>>>>>>>>> adjustment centers for blind adults and youth there would be
>>>>>>>>>> no need for a facility for housing students in training to be
> constructed.
>>>>>>>>>> Hold
>>>>>>>>>> on folks.
>>>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>>> complete the
>>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
>>>>>>>>>> know the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots
>>>>>>>>>> of background information on the applicant to the guide dog
>>>>>>>>>> unit. Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on
>>>>>>>>>> references and other information that may be true or false the
>>>>>>>>>> NFB guide dog program will have all ready had accurate
>>>>>>>>>> information gathered for them by the training center and can
>>>>>>>>>> be assured that the applicant is a suitable candidate for a
>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>>>> the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
>>>>>>>>>> of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>>>> successfully complete the cane travel component of their
>>>>>>>>>> immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to
>>>>>>>>>> complete other aspects of their immersion training minimizing
>>>>>>>>>> the wasted time students often experience when at guide dog
>>>>>>>>>> training facilities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be
>>>>>>>>>> required to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other
>>>>>>>>>> center classes and participating in designated center
>>>>>>>>>> activities. Like students who undergo cane travel instruction
>>>>>>>>>> at our centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to
>>>>>>>>>> travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In
>>>>>>>>>> the beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel and
>>>>>>>>>> complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it
>>>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
>>>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of
>>>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>>>>>>>>>> different than is done by current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>>> dogs would return for a period of training when they're taught
>>>>>>>>>> how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready to be
>>>>>>>>>> pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
>>>>>>>>>> receiving the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
>>>>>>>>>> Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for
>>>>>>>>>> training with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to
>>>>>>>>>> house students in training is one way to reduce the cost of
>>>>>>>>>> training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion
>>>>>>>>>> must continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First
>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see a more in depth background investigation
>>>>>>>>>> of the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check,
>>>>>>>>>> require more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it
>>>>>>>>>> takes. Adoption agencies place children into homes surely
>>>>>>>>>> we can figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of
>>>>>>>>>> situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>>>> dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in
>>>>>>>>>> cases of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost
>>>>>>>>>> of the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely
>>>>>>>>>> valid point.
>>>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>>> Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>>>> had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's
>>>>>>>>>> the right year.
>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look
>>>>>>>>>> at the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it
>>>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those
>>>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties
>>>>>>>>>> cost money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2
>>>>>>>>>> %4
>>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%
>>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl
>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cheryland
>>>>>>>>>> ma
>>>>>>>>>> xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl
>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
>>>>>>>>>> obson
>> %
>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gm
>>> a
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthl
>> ink.ne
>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40g
>> mail.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2
>> %40gma
>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40g
>> mail.c
>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindtlk:
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>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> %40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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>> com
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.co
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>
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