[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Sat Mar 23 12:44:15 UTC 2013
I suspect not. You would, I think, be rash to take that up now. Somehow, however, I get the feeling you will not.
Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Mar 23, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thing is, we aren't in the 70's or 80's, we're in the second decade of
> the 21st century.
>
> Further more, I'm still discriminated against by sighted people, only
> for me it's because of my cleft and all the surgeries I've had. 66 to
> be exact. Now it's were you burned in a fire? Why's your face like
> that? Did your parents do drugs? I've been stalked and relentlessly
> followed by the public as well as my family. I've had people come up
> and touch me without permission, push me/pull me/put their hands on my
> face or even just hug me. Hugs are fine, the other crap, not so much.
> I still won't ever say I represent, I just represent me as stated
> before.
> Honestly, I have more important things to worry about than
> stereotypes. Like am I even safe when I go in public because of how my
> face looks.
> That makes it tripply hard to go out in public and be independent in
> any shape or form, but I do it because I was born this way. What else
> am i gonna do? Hide under a rock?
>
> On 3/23/13, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>> You must not forget, however, that back in the 70's and 80's, circumstances
>> were different then: and, attitudes towrad us were more hostile then than
>> now. Most likely, they tell you that you represent all blind people because
>> of the "seen one you seen 'em all" thing. So, they want just to make sure
>> that the one they see is as compentant as possible. Still, after all, we're
>> only human-blind or no.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind
>> built-in!
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 12:12 AM, "justin williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And this is what I was talking about, the stuff I just choose to ignore.
>>> Call it selective philosophy. I don't represent all blind people. I have
>>> had NFB folks try and drill that nonsense into me. Now, I understand
>>> that
>>> it is upon my shoulders to appear competent, but that is more personal
>>> than
>>> because I am blind. Does some of the representation leak in, sure maybe
>>> a
>>> little. However, it is not fair for me to have to always put that on
>>> myself. I'd die real early if I did that constantly. No, I represent
>>> me.
>>> This is the part of the nfb philosophy I usually disguard most of the
>>> time
>>> that is. There is some validity to it, but if you are smart, you quit
>>> doing that crap most of the time.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michelle
>>> Medina
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 12:02 AM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>>> Not?
>>>
>>> I've been to both NFB and non-NFB training centers. Truthfully, I didn't
>>> really enjoy either of them. I cook, clean, travel and use my computer
>>> quite
>>> well and have done it my way.
>>>
>>> Having said that, and this is kind of veering into the other topic
>>> discussed
>>> here about organizations, their philosophies and such, one of my biggest
>>> problems with the NFB is that at the particular center I was at, and
>>> maybe
>>> not every NFB'er believes this? was that I was told repeatedly that when
>>> I
>>> stepped outside, I represented ALL blind people.
>>> I'm half Mexican and half white. I won't be representing ALL Mexicans or
>>> ALL
>>> white folks any time soon. I was born with a Tessier Cleft. I was one of
>>> eight when I was born in the entire world with it, now I'm one of between
>>> 50
>>> and 56 people. I won't be representing every person with a Tessier Cleft
>>> either. Do I represent ALL NIRVANA fans? ALL NONPOINT fans? ALL SEETHER
>>> fans? No. Why? Because I'm one person, an individual. I represent my
>>> beliefs, my ideas, my thoughts, feelings, emotions, my experiences, not
>>> my
>>> Dad's or my sister's or anybody else's on this list. So how can I
>>> possibly
>>> represent ALL blind people?
>>>
>>> As I said, this is what I learned. Correct me or explain the NFB
>>> definition
>>> of representing ALL blind people if I'm off base and there is one.
>>> Michelle
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> But Desiree ...
>>>>
>>>> Sighted people *are* defined by the organizations they belong to. I
>>>> dare say there are few Roman Catholics who proudly trumpet their faith
>>>> while at the same time proudly exhibiting their membership cards to
>>>> NARAL. (huge grin)
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Desiree Oudinot
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:42 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>> or Not?
>>>>
>>>> That's sound advice. If sighted people aren't defined by the
>>>> organizations or groups they belong to, why should we be? i'm not
>>>> saying that anyone said or even implied that in this discussion, but I
>>>> always get a distinct feeling from those who are deeply involved in
>>>> either the NFB or ACB that they feel your thoughts and opinions don't
>>>> matter if you're not also involved.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I have definitely met other blind people who were not in the NFB who
>>>>> I
>>>> have
>>>>> learned a lot from. You just have to take everyone's philosophy use
>>>>> the
>>>>> parts that work foryou.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Desiree Oudinot
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>> or Not?
>>>>>
>>>>> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
>>>>> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
>>>>> den, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>>>>>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>>>>>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way*
>>>>>> of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
>>>>>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal
>>>>>> to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I
>>>>>> also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you
>>>>>> will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded
>>>>>> community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of
>>>>>> superiority over sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have
>>>>>> felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place at some NFB events
>>>>>> because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't
>>>>>> have the kind of personal history that most other federationists
>>>>>> seem to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone
>>>>>> from joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
>>>>>> discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal
>>>>>> experience. This, then, is not an argument for or against the
>>>>>> NFB--it probably explains more about me than the Federation. I hope
>>>>>> that
>>> helps clarify a little.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but
>>>>>>> by their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
>>>>>>> on the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> kelby carlson
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However,
>>>>>>>> I have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
>>>>>>>> (It's totally possible those reservations will go away some day.)
>>>>>>>> For now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as
>>>>>>>> a blind person and do what I can individually to help others as
>>>>>>>> well. There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just
>>>>>>>> at a place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I
>>>>>>>> do hope to attend the convention one of these years, though, and
>>>>>>>> my mind could definitely change!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
>>>>>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I
>>>>>>>> say and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of
>>>>>>>> value in the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree
>>>>>>>> with. Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to
>>>>>>>> the NFB philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes
>>> where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
>>>>>>>>> why I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
>>>>>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
>>>>>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
>>>>>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must
>>>>>>>>> carry themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired
>>>>>>>>> by all the right catch phrases. That's not limited to
>>>>>>>>> organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of human
>>>>>>>>> nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their
>>>>>>>>> best or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
>>>>>>>>> root and stand above the rest.
>>>>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
>>>>>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
>>>>>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
>>>>>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits
>>>>>>>>> in with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my
>>>>>>>>> life. I don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to
>>>>>>>>> find my purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose
>>>>>>>>> unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low point in the
>>>>>>>>> organization's history. I am content with this, and I feel that I
>>>>>>>>> have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which
>>>>>>>>> most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing for
>>>>>>>>> fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
>>>>>>>>>> looked at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that
>>>>>>>>>> you will not join the American Council of the Blind or the
>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
>>>>>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>>>>>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
>>>>>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
>>>>>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we
>>>>>>>>>> all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear
>>>>>>>>>> if you listen to five minutes of the news is the word
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said for having a way
>>>>>>>>>> to effect the change we want. For me this is the National
>>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American Council
>>>>>>>>>> of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>>>>>>>> to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>>>>>>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>>>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
>>>>>>>>>> finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and
>>>>>>>>>> we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever
>>>>>>>>>> information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all
>>>>>>>>>> I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>>>>>> could careless as logn as you share the information with fellow
>>>>>>>>>> blind individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter
>>>>>>>>>> what special interest group that your apart of cause we should
>>>>>>>>>> all work together in dealing with a rotten situation to make it
>>>>>>>>>> better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB
>>>>>>>>>> or any of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler
>>>>>>>>>>> and have generally managed my life successfully. However, in
>>>>>>>>>>> the work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there
>>>>>>>>>>> are things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked
>>>>>>>>>>> up much of what I missed primarily because of my association
>>>>>>>>>>> with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new
>>>>>>>>>>> situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how
>>>>>>>>>>> many inches I swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and
>>>>>>>>>>> you may see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing
>>>>>>>>>>> the quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether
>>>>>>>>>>> one actually gets out and travels. These are not easy things
>>>>>>>>>>> to measure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What
>>>>>>>>>>> I do know is that most of us are affected by the general
>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities are,
>>>>>>>>>>> unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to
>>>>>>>>>>> believe it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given
>>>>>>>>>>> thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there was
>>>>>>>>>>> a time when there was a clear dividing line between NFB
>>>>>>>>>>> training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>>>>> have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself
>>>>>>>>>>> while most other centers believed that they need to concentrate
>>>>>>>>>>> on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
>>>>>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a
>>>>>>>>>>> couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
>>>>>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who
>>>>>>>>>>> shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in
>>>>>>>>>>> and help but there were too many people to try to help all at
>>>>>>>>>>> once.
>>>>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and
>>>>>>>>>>> that what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer
>>>>>>>>>>> was not the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to
>>>>>>>>>>> diminish the role of good travel techniques, only to make the
>>>>>>>>>>> point that there is more to travel than techniques. Having
>>>>>>>>>>> said all this, though, I also believe that what we have come to
>>>>>>>>>>> call structured discovery is a valid difference in how one
>>>>>>>>>>> learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn but
>>>>>>>>>>> provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>>>>>>> not attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on
>>>>>>>>>>> our own to some degree, but we would probably have adopted it
>>>>>>>>>>> more easily having had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem
>>>>>>>>>>> to be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you
>>>>>>>>>>> with the details of the time I almost missed a flight because I
>>>>>>>>>>> allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to
>>>>>>>>>>> have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
>>>>>>>>>>> airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get
>>>>>>>>>>> to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been
>>>>>>>>>>> a part of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely
>>>>>>>>>>> have been given the chance to interact personally with people
>>>>>>>>>>> who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of
>>>>>>>>>>> course, but what about the many experiences that are not
>>>>>>>>>>> discussed?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>>>>>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that
>>>>>>>>>>> there are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had
>>>>>>>>>>> you spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't really think that is the point. The point is how can we
>>>>>>>>>>> help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>> someone else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore
>>>>>>>>>>> here some of the things that many of us have overcome as a
>>>>>>>>>>> result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
>>>>>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference
>>>>>>>>>>> in training centers or not. I care more that you have what you
>>>>>>>>>>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are
>>>>>>>>>>> able to live as full a life as you can live, and I believe
>>>>>>>>>>> there are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>>>>>> federationists-that my local training simply must have been
>>>>>>>>>>>> far, far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet
>>>>>>>>>>>> seen no actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to
>>>>>>>>>>>> why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>>>>> mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
>>>>>>>>>>>> interested to pay for a little instruction to get a sense of
>>>>>>>>>>>> their methodology in real space time rather than forcing people
>>>>>>>>>>>> to commit to six to nine months.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
>>>>>>>>>>>> replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>>>>> locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>>>>>> areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>>>>>>>>>> then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my
>>>>>>>>>>>> vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills,
>>>>>>>>>>>> my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give
>>>>>>>>>>>> him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>>>>> mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>>>>>> either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> in between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with
>>>>>>>>>>>> kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
>>>>>>>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>>>>> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@ec
>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST
>>>>>>>>>>>> - #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
>>> resources.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013
>>>>>>>>>>>> and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>>>>>>>>>> and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>>>>> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>>> else straightaway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> really think that's the case with guide schools. There are
>>>>>>>>>>>> some schools which do things differently from others. But,
>>>>>>>>>>>> there are people who prefer one approach over another. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog training.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>>>>>> nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely
>>>>>>>>>>>> limit the number of people choosing to have training from an
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB guide dog school, should one be started. I don't know to
>>>>>>>>>>>> many people who can give up a year of their life to get a
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and
>>>>>>>>>>>> adjustment centers for blind adults and youth there would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> no need for a facility for housing students in training to be
>>> constructed.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hold
>>>>>>>>>>>> on folks.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>>>>> complete the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
>>>>>>>>>>>> know the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots
>>>>>>>>>>>> of background information on the applicant to the guide dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> unit. Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on
>>>>>>>>>>>> references and other information that may be true or false the
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB guide dog program will have all ready had accurate
>>>>>>>>>>>> information gathered for them by the training center and can
>>>>>>>>>>>> be assured that the applicant is a suitable candidate for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
>>>>>>>>>>>> of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully complete the cane travel component of their
>>>>>>>>>>>> immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to
>>>>>>>>>>>> complete other aspects of their immersion training minimizing
>>>>>>>>>>>> the wasted time students often experience when at guide dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training facilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> required to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other
>>>>>>>>>>>> center classes and participating in designated center
>>>>>>>>>>>> activities. Like students who undergo cane travel instruction
>>>>>>>>>>>> at our centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to
>>>>>>>>>>>> travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel and
>>>>>>>>>>>> complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it
>>>>>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of
>>>>>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>>>>>>>>>>>> different than is done by current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs would return for a period of training when they're taught
>>>>>>>>>>>> how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
>>>>>>>>>>>> receiving the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for
>>>>>>>>>>>> training with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to
>>>>>>>>>>>> house students in training is one way to reduce the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>>> training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>> must continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see a more in depth background investigation
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check,
>>>>>>>>>>>> require more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it
>>>>>>>>>>>> takes. Adoption agencies place children into homes surely
>>>>>>>>>>>> we can figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>>>>>> dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in
>>>>>>>>>>>> cases of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely
>>>>>>>>>>>> valid point.
>>>>>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>>>>>> had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's
>>>>>>>>>>>> the right year.
>>>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look
>>>>>>>>>>>> at the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it
>>>>>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those
>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties
>>>>>>>>>>>> cost money.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2
>>>>>>>>>>>> %4
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%
>>>>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> info for blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> ma
>>>>>>>>>>>> xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
>>>>>>>>>>>> obson
>>>> %
>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gm
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthl
>>>> ink.ne
>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>> mail.c
>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2
>>>> %40gma
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>
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>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40g
>>>> mail.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> com
>>>>>
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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