[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Sat Mar 23 14:04:13 UTC 2013
And your reasoning is, in part, why these lists exist.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kelby
Carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
i can't speak for anyone else. The reason I stay is precisely because of
discussions like these: even if I disagree, I get to analyze other
positions, learn about experiences, and generally come away a more
intelligent, informed, confident and independent individual.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar
2013 21:41:36 -0700
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
I'm afraid that I concur with you that almost *all* lists generate far more
heat than light -- unless their moderators clamp down so hard that the lists
become boring as hell!
But I confess to sometimes wondering why some individuals keep reading our
lists when they find so much objectionable about us. And no, this is not an
invitation to leave. It's just an expression, as King Mongkut put it in
"the King and I", "is a puzzlement!".
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:17 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
Fair enough, Mike. I can understand where you're coming from.
To be
fair, and none of you guys would know this since you don't know me
personally, I often use that phrase, stepping into the lion's den, when I
sense that a topic is becoming heated. In my life, I have rarely witnessed
constructive debating or criticism. I always associate disagreement with
argument, which is not always the case, but that's just a bad habit of mine
to say that particular phrase because it is what i've personally felt like
more often than not.
99%
of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the NFB, but with other
situations that occur in my life.
Having said that, the incident I spoke of happened a few years ago, and I
have since looked into various things to do with the NFB, and spoken to
several members that I know. While I do feel that several things in the
NFB's philosophy clash with me, I'm not going to drag them out on a public
list. There would be no point in that, since I've already settled my
disagreements in my own mind anyhow by deciding not to join.
On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
Desiree:
With respect, although all of us must make generalizations from that with
which we have had experience, it would seem just as unfair to use such
loaded phrases as "the lions' den" to describe our discussions as it is to
use unexamined the phraseology of NFB propaganda (and I think there is no
dishonor in propaganda).
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:27 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support from
NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's den,
though.
On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or the
highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get the
distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the
way* of
understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is unhelpful.
It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel as if
there is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place
at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo,
and didn't have the kind of personal history that most other federationists
seem to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from
joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal
experience.
This,
then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains more
about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by their
dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
battlefield to prove his worth to society.
On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of getting
more involved in blindness advocacy in some way.
However, I
have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
(It's
totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person and
do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great value in
collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that isn't how I
believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the convention one of
these years, though, and my mind could definitely change!
I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation at
times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say it.
But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation and a
great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my philosophy is
very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is worked out
practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself to
be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
however, I
like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas at
arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as listservs
will take it. I feel that reading messages written by individual members
is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic view, of how the members
of each organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must carry
themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all the
right catch phrases.
That's not
limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem, proposition,
or what have you, the people will either put their best or worst foot
forward collectively. There is little time for individual thought
processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above the
rest.
I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best when
there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I take what
is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs, and apply it
to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need to belong to
anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose
unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low point in the
organization's history. I am content with this, and I feel that I have a
right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it
would probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and
shamed.
On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at one
or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the Blind.
I
suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what you
might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
experience indicates that having influence means joining with others of
like mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
understand you, and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about
the better world we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help
but hear if you listen to five minutes of the news is the word
infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said for having a way to effect
the change we want.
For
me
this
is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American
Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time to
time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a commitment to
blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our time,
our energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
that we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
us to travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
Thanks
for
reading.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Wolfe
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is improvization
not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information
from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as
long as you get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and
sell a book for all I care as long as it works for you that is all that
counts.
I
could
careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special
interest group that your apart of cause we should all work together in
dealing with a rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never
going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
sincerely,
Peter
On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
Kelby,
Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I can
only tell you that I received training before there were NFB centers and I
have been a reasonably successful traveler and have generally managed my
life successfully. However, in the work I have done with BLIND
Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed when I was trained. I
think I have picked up much of what I missed primarily because of my
association with others in the Federation.
It
has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at the
start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left and right.
In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with
comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether
one actually gets out and travels. These are not easy things to measure.
I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past, but I
don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know is that most
of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround us in a way that
is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities
are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe
it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time when there was a clear
dividing line between NFB training centers and many other centers. We
believed that we have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and
oneself while most other centers believed that they need to concentrate on
teaching techniques.
The common belief among some other centers was that changing attitudes
toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
mandate.
Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there is a
more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in oneself is
probably as important as the techniques used so some of the lines are not
as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes
can be changed in a couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon
the starting point of the individual.
It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all good
travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain nameless,
said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there were too many
people to try to help all at once.
However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what appeared
to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case for the
traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good travel techniques,
only to make the point that there is more to travel than techniques.
Having said all this, though, I also believe that what we have come to call
structured discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In
some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which
to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have adopted
this approach on our own to some degree, but we would probably have adopted
it more easily having had training in an NFB center.
I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be more
open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for positions we
might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of the time I almost
missed a flight because I allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a
cart, only to have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to. Anyway,
some of what you are hearing here would have been a part of your training
at an NFB Center.
You
would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with people
who had similar experiences so that you could ask them questions. You can
get some of this information here, of course, but what about the many
experiences that are not discussed?
Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it might
be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you didn't get
that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of our centers as
indicated above, but I don't really think that is the point. The point is
how can we help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?
Are there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else
here is comfortable doing? We could even explore here some of the things
that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement from
others.
Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I see
them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care that much
whether you believe there is a difference in training centers or not. I
care more that you have what you need to get a job when you get out of
college and that you are able to live as full a life as you can live, and I
believe there are ways we can help you do that.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my local
training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything the NFB has.
I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no
one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons,
as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish they
would allow people interested to pay for a little instruction to get a
sense of their methodology in real space time rather than forcing people to
commit to six to nine months.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
21
Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement for
mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide dog.
If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get locally then
you don't know what you are missing.
Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no knowledge of
any of the services or very little in there own areas, and come back from
our schools with the confidence and the mobility and the other services that
are given there.
If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's philosophy
then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a dog. I have not
been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an adult, and I learned the
mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I
have to give him the direction to do so.
Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to mention when
I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want to take
our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or whatever the
issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I want to go whether it
is with my Maxx or not.
Have a great night all.
Take care and god bless.
Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to one
another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in
Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
Echevarria,
Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National Federation of
the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for the
http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
2013
and vacation must be traveled no later than
12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and friends
resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate as well.
You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book through us.
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that much time
for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of getting a
dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else straightaway.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
Thu,
21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real lack
of quality training for blind people. I don't really think that's the case
with guide schools. There are some schools which do things differently
from others. But, there are people who prefer one approach over another.
I don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
training.
As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine month NFB
center training, first, this will severely limit the number of people
choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should one be
started. I don't know to many people who can give up a year of their life
to get a guide dog.
Cindy
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Donahue
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the past so
she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments below I'd like
to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment centers
for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
housing students in training to be constructed.
Hold
on folks.
Students
wishing to
obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to complete the
6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's "Bootcamp
training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the student
inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background information on the
applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current guide dog programs that
must rely on references and other information that may be true or false
the NFB guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
gathered for them by the training center and can be assured that the
applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the student
is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring them to
the use of a dog. Students that successfully complete the cane travel
component of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
This
approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete other
aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time students
often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to wear
sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and participating
in designated center activities. Like students who undergo cane travel
instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to
travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In the beginning
they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but
would be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their
own using their dogs.
As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would operate
similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program would operate
its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from donations. The
usual period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
different than is done by current guide dog programs. The dogs would
return for a period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
person. Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner
they along with an instructor would be sent to the center where the student
receiving the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once
their "Bootcamp"
training is complete would transfer to that center for training with the
dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in training is
one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide dog
program could work but I'm sure others would have additional ideas. If
it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
participants. All the best.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I would like
to see a more in depth background investigation of the blind applicant. Do
a criminal background check, require more references, ask the
neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption agencies place children into
homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of
situation the dog will be placed into.
Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing with
animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any reason why
these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or abuse.
In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the dog
in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
We
have
to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's concept
of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had increased over the
years with the cost of living. It has been
$150
since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the right
year.
$150
was a very different sum of money then and now.
I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for substantially
lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the various guide dog
programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the numbers
vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and
other niceties cost money.
Julie
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--
Cordially,
Peter Q Wolfe, BA
cum laude Auburn University
e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
"If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
Peter Q Wolfe
"Stand up for your rights"
Bob Marley
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